"They were not yet born, nor done anything good nor bad" - a fresh look at Romans 9:10-13

I wanted to share some further insights I've had on Romans 9, stemming from an earlier series (here). This time we will focus on the famous passage in Romans 9:10-13, which says:

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls - 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

This passage has been the subject of considerable debate for centuries. One camp has tended to read the text as a cold, hard assertion of God's Sovereignty, where God elects us to salvation or damnation before we existed, apart from any consideration of our good/bad behavior. At first glance, it does seem to read that way. But I think this is a serious distortion of the text as well as the other themes of Scripture. Consider the following points.

First, Paul introduces this section by calling upon "our forefather Isaac" (9:10), which not only continues the same lesson of Abraham in the prior verses (9:7-9), but has the same phraseology as the "our forefather Abraham" in Romans 4:1. Recall that in Romans 4 the issue was also "not of works," as it is here in Romans 9:11. I believe I have convincingly shown in my Revisiting Abraham's reckoned as righteousness series, particularly part 2 (here), that Paul's real focus in Romans 4 was about how Abraham tried to bring about the promised heir of Genesis 15 by sleeping with Hagar in Genesis 16, thus producing the illegitimate heir Ishmael, who was technically Abraham's biological son. In the lesson of Abraham, Paul is saying mere biological descent isn't sufficient to determine who make up God's Chosen Children. Paul uses the language of "flesh" and "works" as closely related, with works meant to show the Israelite superior biological lineage over that of the inferior Gentiles (here). What this means is that when Paul shifts to "also our father Isaac," the same theme continues: now differentiating between Isaac's biological children, Jacob and Esau. So the lesson thus far is not about unconditionally sending people to heaven or hell apart from their deeds, but rather a more practical yet mysterious looking back at a biological/ancestry issue.

Second, we now turn to the most controversial point "though they were not yet born," which most people mistakenly interpret to mean "before they even existed". The reality is, when this situation took place, both Jacob and Esau fully existed, as babies within Rebekah's womb:

Genesis 25: 21 And Isaac prayed to the Lord for his wife, because she was barren, and Rebekah conceived. 22 The children struggled together within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” 23 And the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”

Once you admit the fact that God said this while the children were alive and active within Rebekah's womb, the "before the even existed" reading is instantly discredited. What of the "before they had done anything good or bad"? They were alive and active, yet it wasn't until later in life when they did in fact do good/bad actions. So God was simply making a prophecy during Rebekah's pregnancy of how things would turn out. The "struggling within her" certainly means Jacob and Esau were in some manner fighting each other to be firstborn, with the stronger man winning the birth war, thus Esau being born first. This biological superiority plays out with their "works" showing their dominant physical features. This again ties to the firstborn-yet-not-heir theme as Abraham with Ishmael, and God prophetically saying the older Ishmael will serve the younger Isaac.

Were "those whom God foreknew" the OT saints? (Rom 8:29)

While writing my article on Romans 11:6 (here), something jumped out at me in Romans 11:2, where Paul says: "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." This statement sounds very similar to a few chapters prior, in Romans 8:29, where Paul famously says: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son". While I've already discussed Romans 8:29-30 in an older post (here), I haven't looked at it through this "foreknow" lens, so I'll do that today.

In the context of Rom 11:2, the "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew" is clearly referring to the Israelites, at least those who were faithful, as the prior verse 11:1 asks "has God therefore rejected his people?" as he then lists off marks of Israelite identity. Using the principle of "Scripture interprets Scripture," would suggest that the Israelites of Rom 11:2, "his [chosen/elect] people," at least the faithful ones, are who Paul has principally in mind in Rom 8:29 when he says "those whom He foreknew". In other words, Rom 8:29-30 is actually focused on the Old Testament saints. Others have suggested this is what 8:29 means, but now that I've come across this link to Rom 11:2, I now think the claim has better merit.

If the OT Saints are in view in 8:29, this would better explain why Paul speaks of "those" instead of "us/we" whom God foreknew. It would also better explain why God puts the "called, predestined, justified," and "glorified" all in the past tense, since it would mean the OT Saints already experienced these things. We could even say Paul's repeated use of "also" is to suggest the OT saints "also" experience these blessings along with the NT saints, thus Paul isn't so much speaking of a chain of events, but rather simply saying every blessing the Gentiles experience in Christ, the OT saints "also" experience them. Given the context of Romans 8:29 being about enduring suffering, calling upon the example of the OT saints is an excellent lesson for Paul to draw upon, since we have historical proof of OT saints having to endure trials, and see how God helped them get through it. And, finally, since Paul is concerned about Jew-Gentile tensions, it helps to show the OT saints are blessed, so that the NT saints don't feel superior to them.