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Monday, November 30, 2020

Was Abraham kosher before God? (Modern Judaism)

I recently met someone who had come back to the Church after having been fallen away for about 20 years, and he was given the icon pictured here by someone at his Confirmation earlier this year. He wasn't sure what this icon was about, so he asked me. I immediately recognized the "three angels" from a more famous version of the icon that you've probably seen (here), but I hadn't seen this 'version' with the two people in the background. I turned to the passage in Genesis 18, known as "The Hospitality of Abraham," where this event took place and I showed him the story:

(Genesis 18:1-21) 1 The Lord appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant. 4 Let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree, 5 while I bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh yourselves, and after that you may pass on—since you have come to your servant.”6 And Abraham went quickly into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick! Three cups of fine flour! Knead it, and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd and took a calf, tender and good, and gave it to a young man, who prepared it quickly. 8 Then he took curds and milk and the calf that he had prepared, and set it before them. And he stood by them under the tree while they ate.

9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” 10 The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years. The way of women had ceased to be with Sarah. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I am worn out, and my lord is old, shall I have pleasure?” 13 The Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, about this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son.”

16 Then the men set out from there, and they looked down toward Sodom. And Abraham went with them to set them on their way. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have chosen him, that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring to Abraham what he has promised him.” 20 Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know.”
22 So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

A surface level reading of this passage is pretty straightforward, but the more you know about the OT and Salvation History, you cannot help but struggle to get through it, since you feel like you must stop and ponder each of the many mysterious "details". For example, who are these "three men"? Are they angels? Are they, at least symbolically, the Three Persons of the Trinity? Or is one of them the Pre-Incarnate Son (as I've noted in an earlier post here)? There are various opinions on this matter, but under my limited meditation, personally I think the "three men" can on a 'symbolic' level refer to the Trinity, while on the 'exegetical' level refers to the Pre-Incarnate Son and two angels. The main reasons for my conclusion is that: (1) it certainly seems God Himself is talking to Abraham from among these three men, without the three men being mere accessory individuals; (2) we see chapter 19:1 begin by speaking of "the two angels" arriving in Sodom, suggesting the "third man" was someone more than an angel, thus God the Son; and (3) I recall St Justin martyr pointing out Gen 19:24 speaks of 'two Yahwehs', or two LORD's, one on earth and one in heaven, raining down fire upon Sodom, which at least hints at the idea of Father and Son. You can read St Justin's thoughts on using Genesis 18 as prooftext in his Dialog with Trypho the Jew, ch56 (here). Also, this passage is speaking about a miraculous conception of a promised son who will bring about promised blessings, which I discuss in detail on my Romans 4 article (here in the comments box).

Aside from the reflections on the Trinity and Incarnation, we get yet another fascinating look into Abraham's personality within the chapters of Genesis, this time seeing his generous hospitality (a very big deal for ancient cultures), his quiet meditation and prayer life always ready for when God decides to speak to us, his patience in awaiting the promises, and his intercession for even the worst sinners. St Peter even notes how Sarah had such reverence for her husband that she referred to him as "lord" (Gen 18:12), modeling how every Christian wife should have such submissive-reverence for their own husband (1 Peter 3:5-6). And as I noted in a recent post (here), the plans God had for Abraham to make good on His "promise" does not sound like a Faith Alone scenario, but one which requires faithfulness and righteousness in behavior (Gen 18:19). I would even say that the Hospitality shown by Abraham has the moral lesson of how we should have our house in order, ready to receive God, even being in a State of Grace so that your soul is welcoming to the Trinity to indwell (which I wrote about here).

All that said, what this post was really supposed to be about was what is said in Genesis 18:8 above, namely that Abraham prepared and fed the Three Visitors both meat and dairy at the same time for their lunch. Why is this important? Because following the Destruction of the Temple in 70AD, which I've written about before (here and here), the Jews who remained scattered abroad had to gather together and decide how they should live out their religion now that all their leadership, Temple, priests, prophets, worship, kingdom, land, official leader, etc, had been taken away forever. This 'modern' form of Judaism developed over the centuries after 70AD, and became known as "Rabbinic Judaism," which is a religion substantially different from the Biblical Judaism of the time of Jesus and the Apostles. This 'modern' form of Judaism does not have priests or sacrifices, thus making large portions of Leviticus and the Torah unobservable, and thus those portions of the OT have to be explained away somehow, similar to how Protestants must ignore or explain away any passage of the NT that sounds "too Catholic". In fact, the great majority of Jews today do not even eat lamb at their yearly Passover (see here), which Biblically was to be the main dish, and is equivalent to Catholics celebrating the Eucharist without having bread or wine - which you could say is akin to the Protestant worship service consisting of a Glorified Bible Study (as I've noted here). Among these many 'traditions of men' that the Rabbis had to come up with to keep their religion going and protect it from being absorbed into their Christian or Islamic neighbors, the Rabbis came up with some unique food regulations known as "kosher dietary laws".

When we hear the Hebrew term "kosher" in modern slang it means we know something is "approved" for doing. Most of the Rabbinic kosher laws are found in the Bible, such as God forbidding the Israelites from eating 'unclean' foods such as pork and shellfish, as well as draining all the blood out of an animal before eating it, etc. But some of their major kosher laws are not actually Biblical. For example, one of the main kosher laws that Rabbinic Judaism emphasizes (even to this day) is that a Jew is not allowed to eat both meat and dairy at the same time, within the same meal. It sounds strange to us, but it is a big deal for them and their daily practice. Their only 'proof text' for this comes from the three times the Torah says "do not boil a young animal in its mother's milk," taken directly from Exodus 23:19; 34:26; and Deut 14:21. Since it is mentioned three times in the Mosaic Law (Torah), they claim it must be an especially important law, even if it doesn't have any explanation for it (which is understandable).

The main question I think most people who are new to this would ask is: what about this strange phrase on the surface proves that you cannot eat meat and dairy together? There doesn't seem to be any clear basis from this. Even various Jewish websites admit that, on the surface, this text doesn't suggest meat and dairy together is a bad thing. In fact, most Christians have (understandably) simply taken this passage to mean this refers to some pagan practice that the Israelites were not supposed to emulate, as many of the laws that Moses gave was to keep the Israelites from falling back into the pagan practices of Egypt. What is astonishing about the Abraham example from Genesis 18:8 above is that it would seem Abraham blatantly violated this specific (alleged) kosher law. In fact, I've not been able to find any good explanation from Jewish sources online about this situation. At most, someone could say Abraham lived before Moses, but that doesn't really help because (1) that would mean that if Abraham was allowed to do it, then it's not that serious of an issue, and (2) more importantly, Rabbinic Judaism teaches Abraham was allegedly supposed to know all the kosher laws and pass them down orally.

To cause further problems with the Rabbinic teaching, consider the three times this passage appears:
Exodus 23: 18 You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with anything leavened, or let the fat of my feast remain until the morning. 19 The best of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring into the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk. 20 Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared.

Exodus 34: 25 You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with anything leavened, or let the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover remain until the morning. 26 The best of the firstfruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk. 27 And the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Deut 14: 20 All clean winged things you may eat. 21 You shall not eat anything that has died naturally. You may give it to the sojourner who is within your towns, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk. 22 You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year.
Notice that the "young goat in mother's milk" prohibition stands seemingly alone, without any qualification. While there are detailed lists of clean and unclean animals, as well as details of how to worship and prepare sacrifices, this mixing prohibition seems random and out of place. Admittedly, after seeing the context, interpreting the prohibition as referring to a pagan ritual also seems kind of out of place, but still more feasible than the Rabbinic view. That said, after looking around on Google, I found two much better explanations. First, one Jewish scholar on a scholarly website (hidden from me behind a paywall) showed the article summary which said this text hasn't been translated properly, and rather than a young goat it's actually referring to young/new life in the form of fruits/grapes, and thus fits with the "firstfruits" context of offering to God your best grains, fruits, etc. This makes sense, but the weakness is that it means most every translation 'got it wrong', which isn't a safe assumption.

The second and more satisfying answer I came across, from someone from a Protestant denomination known as "Messianic Judaism" (here), says that the phrase was probably a Hebrew idiom, the exact meaning of which has since been largely forgotten. As I've come to find out and share on this blog, many Hebrew idioms in Scripture have been lost on us, causing us to misinterpret many passages, such as "Calling upon the name of the Lord" (which I discuss here). I think that when it comes to seemingly strange statements in Scripture, we should more often consider whether we are dealing with an idiom, rather than trying to interpret it too literally. In this case, the Hebrew idiom is something along the lines of "do not mix the prior generation (milk) with the present generation (kid)". It sounds somewhat similar to Jesus saying "do not put new wine into old wineskins," which our modern ears wouldn't understand unless we had someone explain it. Recall that the context of all three passages above was "firstfruits" and "tithing" to God what is your best and first harvest. In this case, God is saying take care to not mix or pad this years tithe/firstfruits with last year's crops. It might be tempting for a poor farmer to bring to their Levite priest a mixture of 50-75% this years firstfruits from his garden/farm with a mixture 25-50% of last years crops, and nobody except the farmer (and God) would know the difference.

To wrap things up, I think the Abraham example in Genesis 18:8 along with the Hebrew idiom angle together form a more than convincing argument against the Rabbinic kosher teaching. This realization is important not only because we now have a better appreciation for what the Bible actually says, but we also have a means of evangelizing those of the Rabbinic tradition, who might give Christianity a fair look once they see their own position has some serious difficulties on relatively important matters (i.e. kosher dietary laws are very important to their daily practice of their religion).

11 comments:

Talmid said...

About Abraham being kosher, there is this jewish explanation of the angels meal: https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/766151/jewish/Did-Abraham-serve-his-guests-non-kosher.htm

Not that i think the pratic makes much sense, the second interpretation you gave of the young goat passages makes way more sense to me that the kosher one.

Nick said...

That was one source I consulted about possible Jewish responses, but I don't think those possible explanations are that convincing. If eating dairy before meat is such a big deal, then we shouldn't expect Abraham to be promoting it.

Saying they were Gentiles so that makes it ok is not convincing because it presupposes the Gentiles shouldn't be keeping God's laws, even if 'just' dietary laws. Which really circles back to the whole rational behind the prohibition: there is no rational behind the prohibition, it's merely a "God said so," which is the least satisfying reason.

The "loophole" that dairy can be eaten first because you can easily wash your mouth clean from it then immediately eat some meat seems like the worst form of legalism. It amounts to saying a law can be broken as long as you're a good enough lawyer to game the system. And it really makes a mockery of the prohibition because then it makes it even less reasonable and complete superstition to think in terms of "meat before dairy is a grave sin before God, but dairy before meat is no big deal".

Talmid said...

Well, i agree that these explanations makes the pratice even more strange, but they seems to fit with Judaism. The Torah was only given to the jews, the gentiles only have to pratice the Seven Laws of Noah, and the "loophole" things seems common: https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/loophole-lets-farmers-observe-jewish-law-1.5320221

It seems them that Modern Judaism at least is self-consistent.

James Ross said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
James Ross said...

My understanding was that to boil a baby in its own mother´s milk was a cruel practice of the pagans, unworthy of Jews.Isaac Bashevis Singer, in his "The penitent", points out that Jews do not even hunt as it is cruel.
I recall when working as a waiter at Wilf´s restaurant in Portland many years ago, a Jewish man looking at kosher reuben sandwich on the menue and remarking that it was not kosher. The saurkraut, rye bread and other fixin´s were fine but the swiss cheese rendered it unkosher.

Reksio said...

Some insight taken from great commentary of Haydock.

Ver. 19. Dam. The paschal victim must not be so young as to be still suckled. The Samaritan subjoins, "Because that would be like immolating an animal found dead, and the God of Jacob hates it." (Calmet) --- Some imagine that this law alludes to a superstitious custom of the pagans, (Spencer, Rit. ii. 8,) or it forbids eating animals while they are, as it were, all milk, not eight days old. (Rivet)

Ver. 26. Dam. Chaldean, "thou shalt not eat flesh with milk." See chap. xxiii. 19.

Considering Talmud is Babylonian, it seams that it's origin of that kosher law.

Dam. All appearance of cruelty must be avoided. Christ, who is signified by the kid, on account of his assuming our sinful nature, shall not be slain in his infancy. (St. Thomas Aquinas, i. 2. q. 102. a. 6.) (Worthington). --- Some take this prohibition literally, and extend it to calves and lambs. The Arabs use milk in almost all their ragouts. (Roger. ii. 2.) --- Others think that kids must not be eaten, while they are as yet too tender, Qui plus lactis habet quam sanguinis. (Juvenal, Sat. xi.) --- But we believe that God forbids the paschal lamb or kid to be offered while it sucks. It must be of a competent age, of one year, Exodus xii. 5., and xxiii. 19. Other victims would do if they were only eight days old, Leviticus xxii. 27. (Calmet)

Matt Hedges said...

Nick, what are your thoughts on the fact that Romans 4:8 uses the aorist subjuncitive/emphatic negation subjunctive for the word "impute" or "count"? It is "logisetai".

Dan Wallace in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics on pg 468 lists Rom 4:8 as being an instance where this emphatic negation subjunctive occurs. Specifically in regard to the whole phrase from Rom 4:8 [ou me logisetai].:

“c. Emphatic Negation Subjunctive 1) Definition Emphatic negation is indicated by οὐ μὴ , plus the aorist subjunctive or, less frequently, οὐ μὴ, plus the future indicative (e.g., Matt 26:35; Mark 13:31; John 4:14; 6:35). This is the strongest way to negate something in Greek. One might think that the negative with the subjunctive could not be as strong as the negative with the indicative. However, while οὐ + the indicative denies a certainty, οὐ μὴ, + the subjunctive denies a potentiality. The negative is not weaker; rather, the affirmation that is being negatived is less firm with the subjunctive. οὐ μὴ, rules out even the idea as being a possibility: “οὐ μὴ is the most decisive way of negativing someth. in the future.”58 Emphatic negation is found primarily in the reported sayings of Jesus (both in the Gospels and in the Apocalypse); secondarily, in quotations from the LXX. Outside of these two sources it occurs only rarely. As well, a soteriological theme is frequently found in such statements, especially in John: what is negatived is the possibility of the loss of salvation. 2) Illustrations Matt 24:35 οἱ λόγοι μου οὐ μὴ παρέλθωσιν My words will not at all pass away. --- John 10:28 δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα I give them eternal life, and they will not at all perish. ---John 11:26 πᾶς ὁ ζῶν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ Everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. ---Rom 4:8 μακάριος ἀνὴρ οὗ οὐ μὴ λογίσηται κύριος ἁμαρτίαν Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not at all count. ---Heb 13:5 ouv mh, se avnw/ ouvdV ouv mh, se evgkatali,pw I will not at all fail you nor will I ever leave you.”

(Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, pg. 468)

Bauer's A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian literature also on pg. 517 also lists Rom 4:8 as being a place where the emphatic negation subjunctive occurs./aorist subjunctive. Note that Wallace says that the emphatic negation subjunctive, when used with οὐ μὴ denies the potential of thing/event which it is negating. And according to both Bauer and Daniel Wallace (James D.G. Dunn also mentions this in his commentary on Romans 1-8 from the WBC series), Romans 4:8 is denying even the potential/possibility of God imputing sins to the one to whom "God credits righteousness apart from works" (4:6)




Paul is thus denying even the possibility of God imputing the believer's sin to him. Due to the phrase "just as" at the beginning of verse 6, vv 6-8 as a whole are a further part of Paul's argument from 4:1-5. Thus, Paul/David is addressing justification in vv 6-8.

Would not this disprove the Roman Catholic idea that one can lose their justification? If one's sins are imputed to him (which Paul denies in the strongest way possible as I have shown above), then is he still justified? On the contrary, if someone's sins will never be imputed to him, then wouldn't that been he can never lose his justification, of which the non-imputation of sin is an essential component?

I have searched on Catholic Answers as well as through Robert Sungenis' book on justification and your website as well. So far I have not seen any Catholic address the use of the aorist/emphatic negation subjunctive in Romans 4:8.

What are your thoughts on this, Nick?









Nick said...

Hi Matt, I discuss Romans 4:8 on multiple other posts on this blog, so it's not really in context in this verse.

In a recent post, I discuss "The Blessed Man" here in Part3 of Abraham's faith reckoned as righteousness series:

https://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2020/05/revisiting-abrahams-faith-reckoned-as.html

It is important to keep in mind the rest of Scripture when asking such questions, because it is false heremeutic to take a single word and build an entire theology around it, especially if the goal is to actually negate numerous other passages. The James White reading of the "never impute sin" passage is that God will literally never hold a Christian accountable for any sin they ever commit. This is quite extreme and goes against the numerous examples in the OT and NT where when a Believer sins they need to ask for forgiveness. In Mark 11:25-26, Jesus says a Christian must forgive others if they want their sins forgiven. This means a Christian regularly needs to repent whenever they fall into sin. This means God does see them as guilty in some sense until they repent.

Long *after* David wrote Pslam 32 (Blessed is the man whom the Lord will not impute guilt) referring to 2 Samuel 12, another time in 2 Samuel 24 David fell into sin yet again, and when he repented he prayed:

"But David's heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O Lord, please take away the iniquity of your servant, for I have done very foolishly.”

Why would David need to ask God to "take away my iniquity" if David was already forgiven and had Christ's Righteousness imputed to him YEARS PRIOR? The James White reading of Rom 4:8 cannot explain this, thus it is refuted.

The most straightforward understanding of the "emphatic negative" in this case is that once God forgives a PAST sin, God will never again hold that PAST sin against them. The White reading of this is that once God forgives you for a past sin, God will never hold any future sins against you. But that's reading into the text and a serious theological error.

Matt Hedges said...

Nothing in 4:6-8 indicates this it is referring only to past sins. Plus, the whole testimony of Scripture says that God forgives us of all our sins (Colossians 2:13, 1 John 1:9 Bear in mind that, in strict terms, David is not the only person being spoken of Rom. 4:6-8. David is the blessed man without a doubt, but he is not the only person who is spoken of here. That is why Paul in verse 7 says "Blessed are THOSE whose lawless deeds are forgiven".

To call my reading of Rom 4:8 the "James White reading" is silly. Many of the big commentaries note this use of the aorist subjunctive:

“The Psalm moves to the singular, but this is surely no more than a stylistic device. The application is still quite general, and man means anyone at all. For Lord see on 1:4; here it refers to Yahweh, as commonly in LXX. The quotation uses an emphatic negative; God will certainly not count the sins in question against the man of whom the words are written. In the previous verse we have the positive: the sins are “forgiven” or “covered”; here we have the corresponding negative: they are not counted. The change to the singular, sin, is probably stylistic, though of course the word sometimes refers to the principle rather than to individual evil acts. But this distinction does not appear to be in mind here.” (Leon Morris, The Pillar New Testament Commentary: The Epistle to the Romans, pg. 200)

“οὐ μὴ λογίσηται is emphatic: ‘will in no wise reckon’.” (C.E.B. Cranfield, International Critical Commentary: Romans 1-8, pg. 234)


“An emphatic negative (οὐ μὴ λογίσηται) highlights God’s intention never to reckon sin and its PUNISHMENT against the person whose sin has been forgiven.” (David G. Peterson, Commentary on Romans, pg.215; emphasis mine)


Notice that Peterson (above) says that this highlights God's intent not only to never reckon sin, but also to NEVER reckon its punishment (which thus refutes the idea of both purgatory and the idea of losing ones justification).

Also, I do not base the doctrine of imputation on this one word. My main point here is that most Catholic apologists never even address the aorist subjunctive here (even Scott Hahn's commentary dodges it completely). You are a small minority among the group of Roman Catholic apologists regarding this specific issue on the justification debate.

Also, regarding 2 Sam. 24, this is not an issue at all for the Reformed view of justification. We do not deny that we are to confess our sins to God and repent of them.

Nick said...

Hi Matt,

You said: //Nothing in 4:6-8 indicates this it is referring only to past sins.//

KING David wrote this Psalm32 after he sinned with Bathsheba. David was NOT converting for the first time here, but rather had been following God for many years since childhood. David was certainly miserable while he remained in unrepentant sin with Bathsheba (32:3-5). Thus, this Psalm was certainly not suggesting all David's sins of the future were forgiven.

You said: //Plus, the whole testimony of Scripture says that God forgives us of all our sins (Colossians 2:13, 1 John 1:9//

Sorry, but this is VERY WEAK exegesis. Two verses is hardly "the whole testimony of Scripture," and nothing in those two passages suggest future sins. That's SUPER DESPERATE for the Reformed side because they need the Bible to say something it doesn't, and which no Christian in history ever believed that all future sins are forgiven the day you convert. Col 2:13 is talking about all your past sins when you converted, and 1 John 1:9 is talking to believers who happen to fall (see 1Jn 2:1).

All your commentaries you cite have nothing to do with the emphatic negative applying to the future. You simply dodge my response, which is that the emphatic negative means God will never hold PAST forgiven sins against a repentant person.

You said: //Also, regarding 2 Sam. 24, this is not an issue at all for the Reformed view of justification. We do not deny that we are to confess our sins to God and repent of them. //

This doesn't seem like a valid response. David did sin AGAIN in the FUTURE and he asked for these new sin to be forgiven. So this clearly refutes your mere assertions of future sins automatically forgiven. This means you can no longer merely ASSERT future sins are forgiven or what Ps32 must be saying, because 2Sam24 on its face refutes your thesis.

The Reformed are completely baffling when they talk of "we do not deny that we are to confess our sins to God and repent" and other such talk, because if you must confess your sins to God and repent of them, then this BLATANTLY suggests when you sin you become guilty before God and thus must repent to have that forgiven. This of course undermines the entire Protestant Reformation, since it refutes your twin dogmas of Imputation and Future Sins Forgiven.

I am aware that the Reformed basically invent new categories to get around this, putting a new spin on confess, forgiven, repent, etc, nowhere found in the Bible, and almost entirely fist pounding, but it is manifestly UNFAIR in the debate realm. Such new categories and distinctions are never allowed for the Catholic side, but when the Reformed need to get around a difficulty, they are free to magically pull out whatever spin they want. Check out other articles on this blog and you'll see what I mean.

You are not allowed to pray the Lord's Prayer where it says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us" if you genuinely believe your sins are already forgiven. It's flatly disingenuous, especially given the conditional "as we forgive those".

Mk11:25 "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

With all the congregations turning to sin in the New Testament (including Rev2-3), you NEVER hear God/Apostle saying "Your sins are already forgiven". But you do hear "repent or else".

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