Eternal Security Debate Vocab’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers

Eternal Security Debate 

Vocab’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers (Link)

1) To “persevere,” as I see it and based on how Scripture uses the term, means to endure various trials and sufferings without falling away (or get up when you fall) until you cross the "finish line." How can you believe in Perseverance when you believe the Christian is eternally Saved the moment they believe? In other words, if there is nothing that can harm the Christian in regards to the status of their salvation (the moment they first believe), how is the concept of Persevering logically valid?

In this whole question there is a fallacy of thinking that unless one can lose their salvation, then one cannot persevere. It’s akin to saying that unless a son can lose his sonship, then he is not a son in the first place. This makes it tough to answer this question from Nick when it comes pre-packaged with multiple layers of misunderstandings, primarily as a result of Nick holding to a Roman Catholic view on soteriology. 

I ask the audience to re-read the question and notice how God is absent from the equation – Nick’s focus is all on what the creature can and cannot do. It’s almost as if God is merely a helpless observer or perhaps a zealous cheerleader but the range of his power ends there when it comes to our perseverance. Inversely, the only reason any believer perseveres is only because God preserves them. He does this for his own glory because we were saved (in part) to do good works because this glorifies his name (Matthew 5:16). How do we know this? Because we are in a new and better covenant (Luke 22:20, Hebrews 8)! 

This was promised in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 32:40 “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.” The promise is clear: this everlasting covenant is God’s doing (“I will make with them”). He will “not turn away from doing good” to us; like, say, taking away our eternal life we have been given via our adoption into his family. And lastly, he changes our hearts (“I will put the fear of me in their hearts”) so that we will not turn from Him (“that they may not turn from me”). What a fantastic love that has been demonstrated on our behalf! 

It seems so wonderful and “god-like” and yet Rome unwittingly downgrades salvation into cosmic marathon race to the finish where only the strong survive. Newsflash: there are no strong, save God himself and that is why we can endure various trials and sufferings without fully and finally falling away, for He is strong when we are weak.

The way the last part of this question is worded may cause some confusion: “if there is nothing that can harm the Christian in regards to the status of their salvation (the moment they first believe), how is the concept of Persevering logically valid?” I feel I should clarify there are things that can harm the Christian in a very real way and I agree with this excerpt from Bethlehem Baptist’s Affirmation of Faith on God’s Work and Sanctification:

We believe that this persevering, future-oriented, Christ-embracing, heart-satisfying faith is life-transforming, and therefore renders intelligible the teaching of the Scripture that final salvation in the age to come depends on the transformation of life, and yet does not contradict justification by faith alone. The faith which alone justifies, cannot remain alone, but works through love…

Although slavery to sin is broken, and sinful desires are progressively weakened by the power of a superior satisfaction in the glory of Christ, yet there remain remnants of corruption in every heart that give rise to irreconcilable war, and call for vigilance in the lifelong fight of faith.

In wrapping up my answer to this question I quote from John Piper’s TULIP Study Guide (Crossway, 2009, p 102):

Perseverance in faith is necessary for final salvation and is the necessary evidence that we have been born again. This is an important truth and one that is sorely lacking in many churches. However, the necessity of our perseverance is not the whole story; God also preserves and keeps us in the faith (See Jude 24 for a good cross reference). 

2) In your Opening Essay, you said: “The Gospels attest to the preserving work of God in several places.” Since you didn’t really focus upon Matthew, Mark, or Luke, please list one passage from each of these Gospels that you believe most stronglyteaches Eternal Security and explain why you believe those verses most strongly teach that. 

I think Matthew 7:22-23 is a good one from Matthew but since I included it in my rebuttal and my list of questions to Nick (meaning I have pointed it out already), I will list Matthew 13:24-30 as well: 

He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Take note of five things:  

1. The weeds are weeds and the wheat is wheat – they are not switching back and forth.
2. The weeds are placed there by the enemy. 
3. The weeds were never part of the Master’s seed - even though they initially appear to be.
4. The Master sowed good seed in his field and it came up and bore grain – exactly as it was designed to grow.
5. The servants are confused but not the Master – he knows who is who and what is what all along.

One other good one in Matthew is Matthew 10:40-42 but I’ll move on now to the Gospel of Mark. For Mark, I’ll go with Mark 10:29-30: Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life."

Here, Jesus tells us that “there is no one who has left” … “who will not receive” … “eternal life”. Obviously, I truncated the verses to make it stand out more but note we see the phrase “no one” again next to “eternal life”, as in John. This means all will who have done this will receive eternal life. Is it not in essence saying that all true disciples do receive eternal life? How is this all done? We should look back to Mark 10:27  Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." Salvation is not possible with only man but only possible with God.

For Luke, I’ll just list Luke 6:47-49 and Luke 15:3-7. They are short enough that our readers can simply scroll their mouse over them and the text will pop up right on the screen of the actual blog post. I wish I had time to do a mini-exegesis but this is due tomorrow and this is the last time I will have to work on this today.

As for passages in John teaching that salvation can not be lost, the ones from John 6 and 10 (among others) in my opening statements should suffice. But as an added bonus, I’m going to bring in one thing from another place in the Johnanine corpus from I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” This is a helpful commentary, especially for the passages from John’s gospel.

 

3) In my Opening Essay I quoted Jesus saying: “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” in Matthew 6:12-15 along with its parallel inMark 11:25. (Unfortunately, I misidentified the passage as Matthew 5 instead of Matthew 6, and Mark 10:25 instead of Mark11:25, but you seem to have realized that given what I was speaking on.) The context of the passage I was speaking within was the Lord’s Prayer, especially the petition “forgive us our trespasses”. The question is: do you believe the Lord’s Prayer is a prayer that is part of the (post-conversion) Christian’s regular prayer life and thought? If No, then explain why the Lord’s Prayer (whether verbatim or simply it’s elements) has no place in Christian’s regular prayer life. If Yes, then explain why the Christian must regularly ask for forgiveness from God when they engage in this or similar prayer.

Yes, I think that the Lord’s Prayer is a great pattern of what a Christian’s regular prayer life should entail. The reason we must regularly ask for forgiveness is because we regularly sin. Furthermore, we are commanded to do this here and in other places. We would be wise to remember that our “personal fellowship with God is in view in these verses and not salvation from sin”. This makes sense because “God forgiveness of sin is not based on one’s forgiving others, a Christian’s forgiveness is based on realizing he has been forgiven.” (Bible Knowledge Commentary).

 This idea comports well with Ephesians 4:32. We should think about this for a minute: Ephesians 4:32 tells us we should forgive each other “just as God in Christ has also forgiven” us but Nick seems to be implying we should forgive others because if we don’t we will lose our salvation! One motivation focuses on God’s grace, the other on man’s fear. I think the former is undoubtedly the biblical model.

4)  In commenting on my use of “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses,” you said in your Rebuttal:

Nick says that “if the believer won’t forgive others, God won’t forgive them.” The best way I have seen this summed up is like this: “Unforgiving means unforgiven.” This means that if a person is unforgiving then they themselves have not known forgiveness. I would also like Nick to tell us if he thinks he himself has perfectly forgiven all those in his life who have harmed him. Is it even possible for him to remember this accurately? Yes, we should be forgiving if we have been forgiven but we are kidding ourselves if we think we can forgive others in a way that meets God’s standard.

One of the most explicit passages that someone can be forgiven and yet turn to sin and be damned is Matthew 18:21-35. I mentioned Matthew 18:21-35 in my Opening Essay, but you didn’t comment upon it in your rebuttal. In light of your comment that a person who wont forgive means they were never originally forgiven: how do you explain the teaching of Matthew 18:23-35 (particularly verse 35) as well as your own admission Christians don’t always forgive?

I am not sure I completely comprehend Nick’s question here but I will do what I can to answer. One important factor in interpreting this passage is that it is a parable. Most modern commentators understand that parables usually have one main point and some of the details may be incidental to the telling of the story. This is not literary hair splitting, for it appears that Nick may be interpreting this passage as an allegory, in which almost every detail of the story has a spiritual meaning.

To see what I mean, check out the end of the story in Matthew 18:34: “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.” The ESV has a footnote explaining that jailers mean “torturers” in Greek and most translations denote this. These are guards whose sole job was to torture prisoners. We know that hell is eternal torment, true, but If this is a one-to-one allegory, then who would the torturers be? Certainly not demons! This helps us see that every detail is not an exact parallel. Another example is the fact that he was thrown in jail until he could pay all his debt. But who could pay all that debt (especially in jail)? No one! Lastly, it does not seem likely that Jesus (whom Nick would see as the king, whereas I would be more inclined to just see a story proving a point) would call a true disciple of his a “wicked servant”.

Following Craig Blomberg, we can boil the parable down to this: “God eternally and unconditionally forgives those who repent of so immense a debt against him that it is unconscionable for believers to refuse to grant forgiveness to each other for sins that remain trivial in comparison.” (New American Commentary, Broadman, 1992, p. 282). Nick’s assessment that Matthew 18:21-35 is “one of the most explicit passages that someone can be forgiven and yet turn to sin and be damned” is certainly not well founded.

I encourage the audience to go back and read Nick’s opening statement, you will note that he never provides a solid exegetical basis for the claim but rather assumes his brief description of the passage is equivalent to its true meaning. His commentary runs a mere 50 words, only 19 of which is interpretation; the other 31 are just his description of the parable. I respect Nick and appreciate his zeal but this sort of exegesis simply will not wash.

5) Two important passages I quoted but didn’t see you comment upon were Luke 8:13 (“The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”) and Matthew 24:12-13 (“Because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”) I want you to exegete these two passages (since the passages are similar enough), making sure to touch upon “believe for a while,” falling away, love growing cold, and “will be saved.”

In looking at Luke 8:13, it may help to look at the flow of the whole chapter. One interesting passage from Luke is Luke 8:18: “for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." It is very telling the text says that “even what he thinks he has,” implying this person does not possess what he thinks he does! The preceding verse is Luke 8:17, which says, “For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.” In judgment, it will made known those who are truly his own.

Before I end this section of my responses, I should make mention of the context of Luke 8, in that Luke 8:4-15 contain the Parable of the Sower. There are some related points to make here. For  example, verse 12 says the devil takes away the word “so that they may not believe and be saved.” Note that one is saved by believing and that these folks have not yet believed – they are not true believers. The next group receives it with joy (v. 13) but fall away in a time of testing. This group displays a nominal, superficial, emotional, and non-saving faith. It’s important to pick up on the fact that they have no root. It’s obvious they were never saved. The next group (v. 14) are epitomized by the rich young ruler (Luke 8:18-30), who was never a follower of Jesus. Key to understanding all this is that only the last group is called “good soil” (v. 15).

On Matthew 24:12-13 ... those of us who understand the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints to be biblically-based do not believe that every professing Christian remains a professing Christian but rather that every one who is truly Christ’s will be upheld by the power of his sure hand and therefore persevere. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking on persecution that will cause many professing believers to fall away. This means they will stop professing and stop associating with true believers – their love will grow cold. The threat of physical violence against them reveals their true colors; we see a similar scenario described in the book of Hebrews.

The phrase “fall away” is from skandalizo and means to stumble or to take offense; it doesn’t necessarily mean “to lose your salvation.” This makes sense in the context of the passage. We should also note the presence of false prophets in the mix. The false prophets are false believers and other false believers will follow them. All of this language makes perfect sense to describe a great shaking up in the visible church due to an increase in persecution. How else could Jesus have said it? 

One does not have to read this discourse as describing true believers losing their salvation – for the text does not demand it. If one already assumes that true believers can and do lose their salvation, then I suppose they would be so inclined to read it that way but that does not mean the text actually warrants such a reading. One other consideration is that the logic of Matthew 7:23: “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” should factor in as we interpret what Jesus was saying here (incidentally – or not – both texts include the word ‘lawlessness’).

Some Dispensational commentators think the “saved” of Matthew 24:13 does not refer to eternal life but rather physical deliverance. While I do not think that is likely (at all), it is often to helpful to consider rival interpretations before one selects one as the best. In saying this, I know that Nick as a Roman Catholic can not do this because any rival interpretations on this chapter and these few verses do not line up with Roman Catholic teaching. I ask the reader to then consider what is a more legit handling of all the Scriptural data.

By way of illustration, as a Protestant, I could accept as possibly valid a number of views on these verses. An Arminian (as I once was) would actually agree with Nick’s/Rome’s view and so it is not “off limits” for a Protestant to consider that this verse is actually designed to teach us that true believers will lose their actual salvation. Of course, I do not think this view is accurate, but I don’t think those who think this are unbelievers per se. These are just some thoughts I hope folks honestly consider as they examine both of our arguments on these passages.

As a final remark, please keep in mind that Scripture does teach that those who are saved must necessarily persevere; meaning that if they are saved they will and if they are not, then they won’t. So, from both angles one could say perseverance is necessary. If one does not persevere then they will not be saved no matter what they professed because they were never saved anyway. Perseverance is a requirement in a sense but God equips those who are truly saved with a sovereign and sustaining grace that enables them to keep said requirement. Once again, we persevere only because he preserves – shame on us if we dare think we can do it any other way!

Eternal Security Debate - Nick's 5 CrossEx Answers

Eternal Security Debate

Nick’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers

Question 1: Is it possible to lose and regain your salvation thousands of times within one life? Or is there a limit to how many times one can be saved? How does one re-gain their salvation after they have lost it?

Answer: A Christian can fall into grave sin, lose their salvation, then repent (especially through the Sacrament of Confession) to recover their salvation, all on any given day of their life. God, in His infinite Mercy, could allow this to happen “thousands of times within one life,” but there is by no means any guarantee. On one hand, we see Christ telling Peter he must forgive his neighbor “seventy times seven times” (Mat 18:21-22), which Christians have always understood to roughly mean “as often as necessary,” and not a strict math problem with a sin-forgiveness limit of 490 times per person. This suggests God would deal with His children on similar (if not more ‘generous’) grounds. On the other hand, the Bible warns that we must persevere, that God’s mercy is not mocked, and He can call you to judgment any time...so any time you fall into grave sin could be your “last chance” (e.g. Mat 24:44). There is really no absolute and definitive answer to your question, only guidelines.

From a practical standpoint, a Christian should never become complacent, and rather should be striving to grow in holiness every day. As one grows in holiness, they will undoubtedly be faced with greater attacks by the devil, which God and the Saints who have gone before us teach very clearly. Because of this, God certainly provides even greater graces in proportion to the attacks, increasing the growth potential in holiness. The Catholic ‘rule of thumb’ is that the more one prays and lives a holy life and receives the Sacraments (like Eucharist and Confession) frequently, the less likely they are to fall into grave sin (though such a danger is never fully eliminated).


Question 2. Please explain the (apparent?) inconsistency in your view that the Roman Catholic Church could never become apostate and yet every single one its members and leaders could lose their salvation at any given time (similarly, do you believe the Pope himself could permanently lose his salvation?).

Answer: The shortest and most succinct answer to your question is “Divine Providence.” I think the best way to demonstrate this is by drawing a parallel: Though every Bible is the Word of God, it is still subject to being lost, destroyed, or corrupted. Yet God, in His Divine Providence, has always preserved the Bible in every generation, in spite of the many Bibles that have been lost, destroyed, or corrupted. No Protestant or Catholic who believes in Scripture’s plenary Inspiration and Inerrancy would deny this extraordinary miracle and truth.

Now with that in mind, we can see why there is in fact no logical inconsistency with a Catholic claiming Divine Providence extends further, to include the Church. Despite the fact all members are still capable of falling into sin, God, in His Providence, would not let His Divine Institution, the Church as a Body, fall away. In fact, if the Church is truly the Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head, as Scripture clearly teaches, then the Church is (despite sinful members) in a very real sense Indefectible (since Christ’s Body, by nature, has a Divine element to it). In short: God assures that not all members of His Body, especially not all members of the Magisterium, would never universally fall away (just as Jesus protected the original band of Apostles from collectively falling away).

As for whether the Pope could lose his salvation, the answer is “yes”. Peter, the first pope, lost his salvation when he denied Christ. Of course, since salvation can be recovered after genuine repentance, anyone (including a pope) can recover their salvation. That said, anyone (including a pope) who falls into grave sin and loses their salvation may not repent before departing this life, and thus they would be damned.


Question 3. I assume you hold that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, infinite power, and a purpose for all that He does. On your view, God knows all those whom He will truly save only to have them lose their salvation later.
What then do you think is God’s purpose in giving someone a new heart, coming to dwell within them, and uniting them to Christ , only later to have them undo the whole process?

Answer: This is probably one of the biggest and most difficult questions mankind has to face, right along with “why did God create the world knowing it would become corrupted?”and “why does God allow so much suffering?,” etc. I wont pretend to have a sufficient answer. All we can do is speculate, based on certain principles we know to be true. For example, God hates sin and could never command it, thus whenever sin takes place, it is the individual that is at fault and thus culpable. Given that, God can choose to punish that individual in any way He deemed proper, or He could have mercy to the degree He deemed proper. (I want to add that God is not arbitrary in any of the way He deals with sinners, and His decisions actually reflect a very real Divine ‘fairness’, ‘love’, and ‘justice’ that transcends our human understanding of these concepts.) Another principle (that is no less Mysterious than the one already mentioned) is that God only allows sin so that either a greater good may result or to avoid a greater evil. Thus we see the amazing passage of Scripture, “where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.”

In regards to a Christian falling away and eventually being damned, all we can be sure of is that (1) the Christian must have deliberately turned to grave sin, and (2) God allowed this for a greater good. Any speculation beyond that is just that, speculation, and we’re all aware of the various difficulties that arise when we try to pry into the transcendent plans and operations of God. As a final thought, though this is not a historical debate, since the only Christian group that believes in Eternal Security is the Reformed (Calvinists), this means that all the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and non-Reformed Protestants throughout history have pondered over these difficult things.


Question 4. You’ve stated numerous times during this debate that Judas was truly saved and then lost his salvation. Please give us a few lines of biblical evidence where we can see any clear signs that Judas was ever regenerate.

Answer: I’d say the strongest evidence that Judas was regenerate is that he was called by Christ to be one of the Twelve Apostles. The primary purpose of Christ calling The Twelve was to be a spring board to spread the Gospel to the world. The various texts of the Gospels that speak of Jesus originally calling the Twelve and listing off their names speak as follows: “[Jesus] called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. The names of the twelve apostles are these...” (Mat 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-15). The entirety of Matthew 10 is essentially one big mission statement to the Twelve (Mat 11:1). This presupposes salvation, else the appointment would be sterile; if Judas wasn’t saved, he wouldn’t be able to do these functions of an Apostle, just as a never saved individual cannot technically truly be appointed to any Church office. Just before Pentecost when Peter recalls Judas’ life he says: “[Judas] was one of our number and shared in our ministry” (Acts 1:17), strongly suggesting Judas was originally on their side. The only distinguishing remark (for obvious reasons) in these lists of the Apostles is that when it comes to Judas, the texts add he was the one who would “betray” Jesus, and not then but in the future. But to “betray” someone indicates a pre-existing relationship, since betrayal is essentially back-stabbing. Further, nowhere do we read Judas “never really believed,” nor are such descriptions really taught about anyone in Scripture.
When it comes to John’s accounts of Judas, the two main passages of interest are John 6:66-71 and John 17:12.

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The way John 6b is structured, verse 66 is speaking of those who couldn't accept “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:52-56), and thus “no longer walked with Jesus.” But this isn’t speaking of the Twelve. Turning to get the answer of the Twelve, the leader of the Apostles, Peter, re-affirms their faith in Him (implying Judas was also in agreement). Verse 70, when Jesus calls Judas a “devil,” could be construed to mean Judas was unregenerate, but given what’s already been said earlier in this answer, verse 71 indicates the reason Judas was to be known as such a bad guy was his future betrayal, nothing about any earlier sins or unbelief. (The term “devil” here, since not speaking of a literal demon, more accurately means “slanderer”.) In John 13, we see the text saying just prior to the Last Supper is when the betrayal took place, when it says Satan "entered Judas” (indicating Judas gave into consenting to the sin of betrayal). This leads to John 17:12, where Jesus says He protected those given to Him by the Father, specifically the Twelve, and that the only one to get “lost” was Judas, implying that Judas was originally not-lost.

The last text to examine is Matthew 27:3-5, where Judas recognizes he betrayed an innocent man, “changed his mind” (some translations render this “repented”), and returned the blood-money. While not proof that Judas was eventually saved (since being called the “Son of Perdition” strongly implies damnation), it suggests Judas wasn’t an unregenerate from the start but instead threw everything he did have away with one monstrous sin.


Question 5. In Matthew 7:22-23 Jesus said, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'” In my rebuttal essay I discussed the emphatic nature of the word ‘never’ and that Jesus could have said “I don’t know you now” or “I used to know you” – but he didn’t.
We also see in John 10:14 Jesus said, “ I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me.” Here we have Jesus saying that he knows His own and yet he says to the many on that day "I never knew you;" how does Roman Catholic theology reconcile all these facts together?

Answer: There are two ways Matthew 7:22-23 can be read: (1) that these folks were flat out never saved in the first place, and only did these “mighty works” for show, to deceive others, or self gain; or (2) Jesus was speaking hyperbolically (i.e. He didn’t need to say “I don’t know you now”), and thus the emphasis on “never knew” is a form of strongly condemning believers who fell away. The first option seems the most plausible, and makes things easier to respond to.

As I respond more fully, the key to keep in mind is that:

• in Protestantism (specifically Calvinism), there are two classes of people: (a) those who never believe, and (b) those who believe

• in Catholicism, there are three classes of people: (a) those who never believe, (b) those who believe and persevere, and (c) those who believe for a while but fall away later on

As you can see, the categories “a” and “b” are pretty similar for both Protestants and Catholics. With that, I can see both Protestantism and Catholicism reconcile those (and similar) verses together pretty easily. A text like Matthew 7:22f would fall into the “a” category. In regards to John 10 (not forgetting the actions in the present tense), the context is of true believers and thus the individuals fall into category ‘b’ or ‘c’. Since there is no overlap between ‘a’ and ‘b’/‘c’, there is nothing to ‘reconcile’, only properly categorizing them. This debate is really about whether category ‘c’ is Biblical or not, which I maintain it is, and is the only way to accurately interpret the passages about losing salvation I’ve put forth in my Opening Essay. 

Eternal Security Debate - Vocab's 5 Questions for Nick

Eternal Security Debate

Vocab's 5 Questions for Nick

by Vocab (Link)

 

1. Is it possible to lose and regain your salvation thousands of times within one life? Or is there a limit to how many times one can be saved? How does one re-gain their salvation after they have lost it?

2. Please explain the (apparent?) inconsistency in your view that the Roman Catholic Church could never become apostate and yet every single one its members and leaders could lose their salvation at any given time (similarly, do you believe the Pope himself could permanently lose his salvation?).

3. I assume you hold that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, infinite power, and a purpose for all that He does. On your view, God knows all those whom He will truly save only to have them lose their salvation later.

What then do you think is God’s purpose in giving someone a new heart, coming to dwell within them, and uniting them to Christ , only later to have them undo the whole process?

4. You’ve stated numerous times during this debate that Judas was truly saved and then lost his salvation. Please give us a few lines of biblical evidence where we can see any clear signs that Judas was ever regenerate.

5. In Matthew 7:22-23 Jesus said, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'” In my rebuttal essay I discussed the emphatic nature of the word ‘never’ and that Jesus could have said “I don’t know you now” or “I used to know you” – but he didn’t. 

We also see in John 10:14 Jesus said, “ I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me.” Here we have Jesus saying that he knows His own and yet he says to the many on that day "I never knew you;" how does Roman Catholic theology reconcile all these facts together?

 

Eternal Security Debate - Nick's 5 Questions for Vocab

Eternal Security Debate - Nick's 5 Questions for Vocab

1) To “persevere,” as I see it and based on how Scripture uses the term, means to endure various trials and sufferings without falling away (or get up when you fall) until you cross the "finish line." How can you believe in Perseverance when you believe the Christian is eternally Saved the moment they believe? In other words, if there is nothing that can harm the Christian in regards to the status of their salvation (the moment they first believe), how is the concept of Persevering logically valid?


2) In your Opening Essay, you said: “The Gospels attest to the preserving work of God in several places.” Since you didn’t really focus upon Matthew, Mark, or Luke, please list one passage from each of these Gospels that you believe most strongly teaches Eternal Security and explain why you believe those verses most strongly teach that.


3) In my Opening Essay I quoted Jesus saying: “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” in Matthew 6:12-15 along with its parallel in Mark 11:25. (Unfortunately, I misidentified the passage as Matthew 5 instead of Matthew 6, and Mark 10:25 instead of Mark 11:25, but you seem to have realized that given what I was speaking on.) The context of the passage I was speaking within was the Lord’s Prayer, especially the petition “forgive us our trespasses”.

The question is: do you believe the Lord’s Prayer is a prayer that is part of the (post-conversion) Christian’s regular prayer life and thought?
If No, then explain why the Lord’s Prayer (whether verbatim or simply it’s elements) has no place in Christian’s regular prayer life.
If Yes, then explain why the Christian must regularly ask for forgiveness from God when they engage in this or similar prayer.


4)  In commenting on my use of “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses,” you said in your Rebuttal:

Nick says that “if the believer won’t forgive others, God won’t forgive them.” The best way I have seen this summed up is like this: “Unforgiving means unforgiven.” This means that if a person is unforgiving then they themselves have not known forgiveness. I would also like Nick to tell us if he thinks he himself has perfectly forgiven all those in his life who have harmed him. Is it even possible for him to remember this accurately? Yes, we should be forgiving if we have been forgiven but we are kidding ourselves if we think we can forgive others in a way that meets God’s standard.

One of the most explicit passages that someone can be forgiven and yet turn to sin and be damned is Matthew 18:21-35. I mentioned Matthew 18:21-35 in my Opening Essay, but you didn’t comment upon it in your rebuttal. In light of your comment that a person who wont forgive means they were never originally forgiven: how do you explain the teaching of Matthew 18:23-35 (particularly verse 35) as well as your own admission Christians don’t always forgive?


5) Two important passages I quoted but didn’t see you comment upon were Luke 8:13 (“The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”) and Matthew 24:12-13 (“Because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”) I want you to exegete these two passages (since the passages are similar enough), making sure to touch upon “believe for a while,” falling away, love growing cold, and “will be saved.”

Eternal Security Debate - Negative Rebuttal Essay

Eternal Security Debate

Debate Resolution:

Do the Gospels Teach that Salvation Can Be Lost?

Negative Rebuttal Essay

by Vocab (Link)

In his opener, Nick lists a great number of proof texts (21!), gave his brief interpretation (often without an adequate justification), and then quickly moved on to his next proof text. It is difficult to properly exegete 21 different passages of Scripture in so short a space. It's unfortunate he took this sort of ‘shotgun approach’ because it often results in superficial readings and is not friendly towards in-depth exegesis. There are a couple general things to note about his list:

Many of them are parables or metaphors. Many are not dealing primarily with issues of salvation and yet Nick reads them that way. Many of the texts are dealing with other matters – they are not primarily 'salvation' texts in that their main subject is something different. Nick's misapplication of Matthew 5:13 is no exception to this flaw. The text is dealing with the collective mission of believers in the world - not with individual salvation. That question isn't even on the floor, so to speak. Just read through Matthew 5:10-14 and ask yourself, 'what is Jesus communicating here: the mission of his followers in a hateful world or some aspect about an individual's salvation?' The answer is without a doubt the former. Even if we were to read this in a way similar to Nick, I'm not sure it would work because the salt is still salt!

Many of his interpretations assume Roman Catholic dogma. Nick uses Matthew 26:33 and says that, “Denying Christ is a cardinal sin, and surely indicates loss of Peter’s salvation.” Note the assumptions: a ‘cardinal’ sin results in loss of salvation. We must ask: where did ‘cardinal sin’ come from in regards to this passage? Isn’t Nick supposed to be proving that salvation can be lost – not already assuming that certain sins result in losing salvation? Nick assumes what he is trying to prove in almost every one of the verses he listed as opposed to deriving his point from the text. Instead, he co-opts the text in an effort to ‘help’ the text help him prove his points. This is called eisegesis – reading in what is not there. 

The use of the present tense does not prove his case. If a person thinks that John using the present tense is proof that one can lose their salvation, then I would want to ask them was there any other way for John to describe an ongoing relationship with the God of Israel? Think about it: if one cannot completely lose the relationship with the Lord, then it is always present! Even more than that, as one reads John’s gospel, they will soon realize that whenever John speaks of the false faith of counterfeit believers, he employs the aorist tense. A few examples are John 2:23 and John 8:30. This is a subtle way John differentiates between ‘wheat’ and ‘tares’, a la Matthew 13:30.

While we’re in Matthew and before we look at a few of Nick’s points, I think it is wise to keep in mind Matthew 7:21–23: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ This will help us keep this debate in perspective; here we have folks who by every external measure look truly saved and yet they were false prophets, wolves in sheep’s clothing. This should humble us, both in our own complacency and our appearance-based judgments. Of course, the most profound statement comes at the end: “I never knew you.” The word here for never is oudepote and per Louw-Nida’s Lexicon (UBS, 1996) refers to “an indefinite negated point of time—‘never, not ever, at no time.’” The entry also points out its use in three other places in the NT (He 9:17; 2 Tm 3:7; Jn 7:46). If you peep out those other verses, you’ll quickly get an idea of the “never at any time” vibe of the word. 

When we compare this to Jesus statement in John 10:14 that "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me," we can see this means Jesus is saying he never knew these folks – they did not fall away, for he did not know them at one time and then their sin became so foul that he had to let them go. No, they never had a relationship with the Lord and instead were workers of iniquity. This truth must factor in all discussions of the eternal security question.

Nick employs yet another non-salvific text - Matthew 10:28 - in his presentation. Interestingly enough, right after this verse we have powerful affirmations of God’s providential control in regards to the smallest of events, as in the death of the sparrow (Mt 10:29); even the number of our hairs is under his governance (Mt 10:30). These verses also direct us towards the protecting love of God; sovereignty and God’s protecting love are the very foundation of the security of the believer! 

In regards to Matthew 5:12-15, Nick says that “if the believer won’t forgive others, God won’t forgive them.” The best way I have seen this summed up is like this: “Unforgiving means unforgiven.” This means that if a person is unforgiving then they themselves have not known forgiveness. I would also like Nick to tell us if he thinks he himself has perfectly forgiven all those in his life who have harmed him. Is it even possible for him to remember this accurately? Yes, we should be forgiving if we have been forgiven but we are kidding ourselves if we think we can forgive others in a way that meets God’s standard.

Out of all Nick’s comments, I found the one on John 13:8 to be the strangest: “Jesus put Peter's salvation on the line, indicating that salvation can be lost…”. Where does Jesus put Peter’s salvation on the line? According to Nick, when he tells Peter he must wash his feet! Unless I misunderstand, what Nick is saying is if Peter had not let Jesus wash his feet in the upper room, then Peter would have lost his salvation. Peter was objecting to his Master’s humble service because he failed to see the deeper meaning of Jesus’ actions but are we to think that this would have endangered his soul? Dr. Ed Blum has paraphrased the object lesson this way: “Unless I wash your sins away by My atoning death (Rev 1:5) you have no real relationship to Me” (1 Jn 1:7).” (Bible Knowledge Commentary, 1983). Jesus isn’t “indicating that salvation can be lost” but rather what the nature of salvation looks like in the first place.

What of John 15:1-10? Is Jesus painting a picture of believers who have lost their salvation and are now to be cast into hell? It seems that the one who “does not abide in me” (Jn 15:6) is an unbeliever, equivalent to the one who “does not bear fruit” (Jn 15:2). 

In John 15:11, Jesus tells his disciples the point of this discourse: “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” Would it make sense for Jesus to say, “Listen up guys; I want you to know that if you don’t bear fruit you’re going to lose your salvation and go to hell – cheer up! Guess what else? I’m going to be betrayed and crucified – now I’m only telling you this so you’ll be happy!” No. 

I hesitate to quote James White because of Nick’s history =) with him but his comments are nonetheless helpful:

“The branches that are pruned by the Father are those that abide in Christ. Again, this is not an action that comes from the branch but from the vine. That is, those branches that have a vital union with the vine are the ones that bear fruit. The fruitfulness of the branch is a function of the vine, not of the branch itself!” (From “The Believer's Security”)

 In another article on this same passage, Dr. White wrote, 

“The branch’s ability to do what it is designed to do (bear fruit) is completely and totally contingent upon another, that being the vine. The life-giving sap flows from the vine to the branch, resulting in the creation of fruit.  In the same way, the believer who bears fruit never does so on “his own,” but only as grace flows from Christ into his or her life.” (From “John 15, the Vine and the Branches”)

Nick’s Opener and John’s Gospel

At the end of Nick’s opener, he claims that when Jesus says “no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (Jn 10:29) that this is “in the sense of external forces” such as Satan. However, the text does not single out Satan (or anyone else); no one is a universal negative - it negates every one. Why is Nick inserting the foreign idea of “external forces” into the text? When it says “no one is able;” this speaks of inability, meaning not even one single person has the ability to snatch them away. Nick really needs to deal with this instead of just telling us what he thinks it’s supposed to mean - especially when he gave us no solid basis for his explanation.

 Much to my chagrin, Nick *does* argue Judas was truly saved and then lost. Isn’t it obvious, though, that when Jesus says he chose Judas in John 6:70, he means “selected to be one of the Twelve”? We see this played out in John 13:18: “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’” Here Jesus explicitly places Judas outside the number of the elect. As Calvin pointed out, “Should any one confound the term election in the two passages, he will miserably entangle himself; whereas if he distinguish between them, nothing can be plainer (Institutes III, xxiv, 9).”

Eternal Life: Now or Later?

Anticipating the use of John 6:40 and John 10:28, Nick said that ‘eternal life’ in John has to do with “being in a current relationship with the Trinity.” It is unclear to me why Nick thinks Protestants define ‘eternal life’ as “legally worthy of entering Heaven” but on the face of it, isn’t it clear that eternal life means at least “life everlasting” or “life that never ends”? It is true there is a qualitative element in the phrase and this does have to do with knowing the Triune God but there is also – almost obviously – a quantitative element as well (Jn 8:51, Jn 11:26). Moreover, in John 10:28 the present tense is used, indicating they have already entered into eternal life – it is a current possession.

As the late Donald Guthrie explained, in John 5:24 “Eternal life is here defined as a transfer from death to life” (The New Bible Commentary, 1994). Nick tells us that “John is never saying ‘believe and eternally saved’” but compare that to John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” Even more grand is the promise that the wrath of God no longer remains on those who believe in the Son! It seems Nick would have us believe differently - that it can indeed remain.

The interesting thing about Nick’s claim that eternal life in John merely means one is “in a current relationship with the Trinity” is directly contradicted by John 14:16: “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever.” This verse is Triune through and through: the Son asks the Father who sends the Holy Spirit - who remains with the believer forever. Further evidence to the permanency of the relationship is that the same word (aiōn) often translated ‘eternal’ is translated ‘forever’ here. This is why it is wrong to believe in lifelong insecurity and right for Christians to speak of eternal security.

Andreas Kostenberger, in his wonderful Father, Son and Spirit: The Trinity and John’s Gospel (Apollos, 2008) helps us see that “this is the great blessing that Jesus the anointed Son of God brings – a share in his filial relationship with the Father by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (p 146-7).” In essence, this means that just as the Father would never kick the Holy Spirit out of the Trinity (God forbid!), now the Father will not kick any true Christian out of the family! As foreign as that may sound to certain ears, think of it this way; “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (Jn 1:12). We have been made sons! We have been adopted by a Father who chose us and does not ‘un-adopt’ those whom he has made sons.