Eternal Security Debate - Nick’s Concluding Essay

Eternal Security Debate - Nick’s Concluding Essay

This final essay of mine will consist chiefly in analyzing Vocab’s Rebuttal Essay as well as his Cross-Examination Answers to my questions.

Vocab’s Rebuttal Essay.

He began by claiming I cited too many proof texts (21) and “often without an adequate justification.” I would respond by saying that I believe I commented adequately upon every text I cited, showing the main idea behind why I cited it. I was be open to seeing which texts didn’t have “adequate justification,” but, unfortunately, Vocab avoided most of my texts and didn’t really give my texts a fair look in the first place. His reasons were as follows:

(1) First, he said: “Many of them are parables or metaphors.” I honestly don’t see how this makes as big of an impact as he claims. Christians have always understood they are to draw the principles and lessons from Christ’s parables and metaphors, without taking everything in a “wooden-literalist” fashion. Vocab even says “many” of the texts I cited “are not dealing primarily with issues of salvation,” yet if anyone looks at my list they will see salvation is indeed a very clear theme (even if only a secondary theme in a few of them). The only passage he examined here was Matthew 5:13, but even as Calvin notes in his commentary: “After having reminded them to what they are called, he pronounces against them a heavy and dreadful judgment, if they do not fulfill their duty.” The phrase “thrown out and trampled” has no other significance than to cast off into hell (as even your link indicates).

(2) Second, he said: “Many of his interpretations assume Roman Catholic dogma.”
I would deny this is relevant in the same way my Rebuttal opened by addressing how my rejection of Sola Scriptura is irrelevant. The only passage Vocab cited in this section was Matthew 26:33, of Peter’s denial of Christ, which I called “a cardinal sin.” Vocab responds by saying: “Note the assumptions ... where did ‘cardinal sin’ come from in regards to this passage?” I only used the term “cardinal” to emphasize the monstrosity of denying Christ! If Vocab wants to claim denying Christ is a minor sin and has no bearing on one’s salvation, I think that puts him in a far more dubious position (e.g. Mat 10:33).

(3) Third, he said: “The use of the present tense does not prove his case.” He seems to have missed my point, which was that it simply corresponds to what is currently a reality, not a completed/finished one. Thus his alleged proofs from John 6 and John 10 that salvation is “secured” is a grammatic-fallacy, since at most they are saying salvation only currently exists as long as certain conditions are currently being met. As for the claim John speaks of “the false faith of counterfeit believers,” the very notion of “false faith” is a Reformed invention. (Astonishingly, Vocab says the believers in John 2:23 and 8:30 are “counterfeit believers”!)

The next proof text of mine Vocab addresses is Matthew 10:28, which he says is non-salvific. While the context certainly is of God’s Providential care of disciples against persecutions, the very point is that though God allows this, He puts a check on them (i.e. loss of earthly life) - where as the contrast is made to God’s punishment for turning to sin is destruction of body and soul in hell - clearly speaking of salvation.

In addressing John 13:8, Vocab correctly understood me. While I do not deny any deeper meaning, the plain, literal account of the event is none the less true: unless Peter (note this is after Mat 16:16-17) submits to Jesus literally washing his feet, Peter would have no share with Christ. Either Jesus was serious in His warning, and thus contradicted the notion salvation is eternally secure, or He was making a false threat. Clearly, only the former is possible.

The last proof text Vocab analyzes is John 15:1-10. He claims the individuals of verse 2 and 6 were never saved to begin with. The two key points in this lesson is that (a) Jesus is speaking to His disciples at the Last Supper (after Judas left), and (b) the text speaks of branches “in” Christ, which makes no sense if they never really believed. How can someone be “in” Christ and be “thrown away and wither” if they never were truly connected to the Vine to begin with?

Vocab goes onto defend his appeal to John 6 and John 10. First, in regards to “snatching” from the Father’s hand, Vocab fallaciously argues that “no one” must logically mean literally everyone. That’s simply ignoring context and making a leap of logic. Just the way the passage is worded, “no one is able to snatch them” indicates the “no one” and “them” are two different groups. Reading verses 10:26, 10:10, and especially 10:12b (it's the “wolf” who “snatches,” using the same Greek word as 10:28f), Jesus is cleanly speaking of external forces, principally Satan and persecutors. Next Vocab speaks on Judas’ salvation, specifically John 13:18, noting that Judas was not among the “elect” in that passage. This is irrelevant, for that in itself doesn’t mean he was never saved at any point. In short, I am not conflating the the term “election” with 13:18 and 6:70. (Also: see my answer on Vocab’s question about Judas.) Lastly, Vocab focuses on the term “eternal life” (as John uses it) but he seems to miss my point that while yes it is a current possession, it’s not in itself a securing of entrance to Heaven. Thus, I agree largely with Vocab’s analysis and proof-texts on the phrase, but he seems to not realize that he’s reading more into the phrase than what is actually true. To highlight my point, which he apparently doesn’t see, John typically speaks of having “eternal life” now, while the other three Gospel writers speak of receiving “eternal life” in the future. Thus, the term is being used two different ways, one speaking about ‘final salvation’ and the other about one’s current (intimate) relationship with the Trinity - and the two cannot be conflated without causing exegetical problems.

Vocab’s answers to my cross-examination questions.

In the first question, I asked him how he can believe in “perseverance” if salvation is eternally secure. His first comment was merely a restating of my question, not a response, while his second comment is non-sequitor. If someone is entitled the race trophy before they finish the race, then how does it make sense to say they must finish the race to be worthy of the trophy? This is an accurate analogy to my question. And my question wasn’t about making God “absent from the equation” as Vocab insinuates, since it’s a given that God is always part of the equation. The issue is whether God allows some not to Persevere, which I maintain the Bible clearly teaches (just as God allows Christians to still fall into sin). In all he says, I think he failed to grasp my point: the question was strictly on logical grounds, not on theological ones. I was trying to see whether he had a logical foundation before applying this to theology, and after his response, I maintain that Vocab’s position has no answer to this plain logical contradiction.

In my second question, I asked Vocab to list one passage from Matthew, Mark, and Luke that he believed most strongly teaches Eternal Security. His first text was Matthew 7:21-23 (which I’ve addressed elsewhere), yet this is merely speaking of someone never saved in the first place. How can this be “strong proof” for being eternally saved? As for his appeal to Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, there are various ways it can be interpreted since it leaves many questions open. For example, it doesn't account for the fact everyone starts off unsaved. One generally accepted reading (e.g. Calvin's) is that this is speaking of those inside the Church. The question is, then, are the weeds those who never believed to begin with (similar to Mat 7:21-23), or are they Christians who became corrupted? If the former, then the parable isn’t focused upon persevering and/or losing salvation in the first place. If the latter, then Eternal Security is refuted, since the theme is the devil sneaking in to corrupt the good (which is my interpretation).

His second text was Mark 10:29-30, but astonishingly, I actually referenced this very passage in my opening essay since I believe it actually strongly refutes Eternal Security.

His third text is Luke 6:47-49 and Luke 15:3-7. I don’t see how the first text supports eternal security at all, and in fact suggests conditional security since the individual must always be keeping Christ’s commandments. The second passage truly cannot suggest Eternal Security, else how is it possible the one sheep got ‘lost’ in the first place? The moral is focused upon a stray Christian needing repentance to get back into the fold, which is illogical and impossible in an Eternal Security theme.

All in all, I believe Vocab failed significantly to show strong and solid proof for Eternal Security in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, and is basically hanging his hat on the two passages from John (which I believe I’ve adequately explained a few times already).

The third question I asked Vocab was concerning Our Lord’s command to pray to God to “forgive us our trespasses,” which Vocab explicitly (and rightly) affirmed is part of the Christian’s regular prayer life. He said: “The reason we must regularly ask for forgiveness is because we regularly sin. We would be wise to remember that our personal fellowship with God is in view in these verses and not salvation from sin.”
If the Christian still sins, and needs forgiveness for those sins, then how is salvation secure? That’s impossible, and a contradiction Calvinist theology has always had trouble with. This is compounded by the fact Protestants don’t believe in the distinction of mortal versus venial sin, and thus all sins are equally serious! If a person is before God with unforgiven sins, then they cannot be saved, much less secure. I don’t understand how Vocab can separate “salvation from sin” and “personal fellowship with God,” since the two are directly related.

The fourth question I asked was how he interprets Matthew 18:23-35. The most basic question is: was the first servant really forgiven by the king in the first place? The plain reading of the text indicates yes. This parable isn’t that complicated, and Vocab’s own quote from My Blomberg confirms the gist of the parable. Thus, Vocab is still left answering how that forgiven man ended up damned.

The fifth question I asked him was how he interprets Luke 8:13 and Matthew 24:12-13. He begins by quoting Luke 8:18, not realizing Jesus is on a different lesson by that point! More importantly, he believes the person never really believed in the first place, but what point is there in the text saying someone “believes for a while” if in fact the person never believed even for a while? That indicates a “never-really-believed-in-the-first-place” reading is impossible. Vocab says: “This group displays a nominal, superficial, emotional, and non-saving faith.” But where does the text, or the chapter, or the NT ever speak of a “non-saving faith”? Vocab’s comments on Matthew 24:12-13 is essentially the same fallacy. If they never had true love, then it cannot ‘grow cold’. Ironically, he goes onto say: “If one does not persevere then they will not be saved no matter what they professed because they were never saved anyway.” Note the failure to distinguish between present and final salvation (as my thesis does do) here and throughout his comments. Without this distinction, Vocab’s comment results in a blatant logical contradiction (since future and past salvation are conflated).

Concluding thoughts.

In conclusion to this debate, I would like to thank Vocab for persevering with me in seeing this debate to the end (pun intended). We both have been busy these last few weeks, but we’ve managed to find the time to talk on this important subject. In consideration of all the evidence provided, I would sum up my case as follows: (a) I’ve provided Scriptural texts that confirm my thesis, (b) I’ve asked questions that Vocab’s thesis couldn’t sufficiently answer, (c) I was able to sufficiently address his rebuttals and questions, and (d) Vocab’s prooftexts essentially consisted in special pleading on two passages in John’s gospel. Thus, I think the audience will see that, from logical and Scriptural standpoint, my thesis is found true: the doctrine of Eternal Security is false and unbiblical.



(p.s. Since these are the final Essays, the Comment Box is now open - with the hope that those commenting have read the entire debate)

Eternal Security Debate Vocab’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers

Eternal Security Debate 

Vocab’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers (Link)

1) To “persevere,” as I see it and based on how Scripture uses the term, means to endure various trials and sufferings without falling away (or get up when you fall) until you cross the "finish line." How can you believe in Perseverance when you believe the Christian is eternally Saved the moment they believe? In other words, if there is nothing that can harm the Christian in regards to the status of their salvation (the moment they first believe), how is the concept of Persevering logically valid?

In this whole question there is a fallacy of thinking that unless one can lose their salvation, then one cannot persevere. It’s akin to saying that unless a son can lose his sonship, then he is not a son in the first place. This makes it tough to answer this question from Nick when it comes pre-packaged with multiple layers of misunderstandings, primarily as a result of Nick holding to a Roman Catholic view on soteriology. 

I ask the audience to re-read the question and notice how God is absent from the equation – Nick’s focus is all on what the creature can and cannot do. It’s almost as if God is merely a helpless observer or perhaps a zealous cheerleader but the range of his power ends there when it comes to our perseverance. Inversely, the only reason any believer perseveres is only because God preserves them. He does this for his own glory because we were saved (in part) to do good works because this glorifies his name (Matthew 5:16). How do we know this? Because we are in a new and better covenant (Luke 22:20, Hebrews 8)! 

This was promised in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 32:40 “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.” The promise is clear: this everlasting covenant is God’s doing (“I will make with them”). He will “not turn away from doing good” to us; like, say, taking away our eternal life we have been given via our adoption into his family. And lastly, he changes our hearts (“I will put the fear of me in their hearts”) so that we will not turn from Him (“that they may not turn from me”). What a fantastic love that has been demonstrated on our behalf! 

It seems so wonderful and “god-like” and yet Rome unwittingly downgrades salvation into cosmic marathon race to the finish where only the strong survive. Newsflash: there are no strong, save God himself and that is why we can endure various trials and sufferings without fully and finally falling away, for He is strong when we are weak.

The way the last part of this question is worded may cause some confusion: “if there is nothing that can harm the Christian in regards to the status of their salvation (the moment they first believe), how is the concept of Persevering logically valid?” I feel I should clarify there are things that can harm the Christian in a very real way and I agree with this excerpt from Bethlehem Baptist’s Affirmation of Faith on God’s Work and Sanctification:

We believe that this persevering, future-oriented, Christ-embracing, heart-satisfying faith is life-transforming, and therefore renders intelligible the teaching of the Scripture that final salvation in the age to come depends on the transformation of life, and yet does not contradict justification by faith alone. The faith which alone justifies, cannot remain alone, but works through love…

Although slavery to sin is broken, and sinful desires are progressively weakened by the power of a superior satisfaction in the glory of Christ, yet there remain remnants of corruption in every heart that give rise to irreconcilable war, and call for vigilance in the lifelong fight of faith.

In wrapping up my answer to this question I quote from John Piper’s TULIP Study Guide (Crossway, 2009, p 102):

Perseverance in faith is necessary for final salvation and is the necessary evidence that we have been born again. This is an important truth and one that is sorely lacking in many churches. However, the necessity of our perseverance is not the whole story; God also preserves and keeps us in the faith (See Jude 24 for a good cross reference). 

2) In your Opening Essay, you said: “The Gospels attest to the preserving work of God in several places.” Since you didn’t really focus upon Matthew, Mark, or Luke, please list one passage from each of these Gospels that you believe most stronglyteaches Eternal Security and explain why you believe those verses most strongly teach that. 

I think Matthew 7:22-23 is a good one from Matthew but since I included it in my rebuttal and my list of questions to Nick (meaning I have pointed it out already), I will list Matthew 13:24-30 as well: 

He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Take note of five things:  

1. The weeds are weeds and the wheat is wheat – they are not switching back and forth.
2. The weeds are placed there by the enemy. 
3. The weeds were never part of the Master’s seed - even though they initially appear to be.
4. The Master sowed good seed in his field and it came up and bore grain – exactly as it was designed to grow.
5. The servants are confused but not the Master – he knows who is who and what is what all along.

One other good one in Matthew is Matthew 10:40-42 but I’ll move on now to the Gospel of Mark. For Mark, I’ll go with Mark 10:29-30: Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life."

Here, Jesus tells us that “there is no one who has left” … “who will not receive” … “eternal life”. Obviously, I truncated the verses to make it stand out more but note we see the phrase “no one” again next to “eternal life”, as in John. This means all will who have done this will receive eternal life. Is it not in essence saying that all true disciples do receive eternal life? How is this all done? We should look back to Mark 10:27  Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." Salvation is not possible with only man but only possible with God.

For Luke, I’ll just list Luke 6:47-49 and Luke 15:3-7. They are short enough that our readers can simply scroll their mouse over them and the text will pop up right on the screen of the actual blog post. I wish I had time to do a mini-exegesis but this is due tomorrow and this is the last time I will have to work on this today.

As for passages in John teaching that salvation can not be lost, the ones from John 6 and 10 (among others) in my opening statements should suffice. But as an added bonus, I’m going to bring in one thing from another place in the Johnanine corpus from I John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.” This is a helpful commentary, especially for the passages from John’s gospel.

 

3) In my Opening Essay I quoted Jesus saying: “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” in Matthew 6:12-15 along with its parallel inMark 11:25. (Unfortunately, I misidentified the passage as Matthew 5 instead of Matthew 6, and Mark 10:25 instead of Mark11:25, but you seem to have realized that given what I was speaking on.) The context of the passage I was speaking within was the Lord’s Prayer, especially the petition “forgive us our trespasses”. The question is: do you believe the Lord’s Prayer is a prayer that is part of the (post-conversion) Christian’s regular prayer life and thought? If No, then explain why the Lord’s Prayer (whether verbatim or simply it’s elements) has no place in Christian’s regular prayer life. If Yes, then explain why the Christian must regularly ask for forgiveness from God when they engage in this or similar prayer.

Yes, I think that the Lord’s Prayer is a great pattern of what a Christian’s regular prayer life should entail. The reason we must regularly ask for forgiveness is because we regularly sin. Furthermore, we are commanded to do this here and in other places. We would be wise to remember that our “personal fellowship with God is in view in these verses and not salvation from sin”. This makes sense because “God forgiveness of sin is not based on one’s forgiving others, a Christian’s forgiveness is based on realizing he has been forgiven.” (Bible Knowledge Commentary).

 This idea comports well with Ephesians 4:32. We should think about this for a minute: Ephesians 4:32 tells us we should forgive each other “just as God in Christ has also forgiven” us but Nick seems to be implying we should forgive others because if we don’t we will lose our salvation! One motivation focuses on God’s grace, the other on man’s fear. I think the former is undoubtedly the biblical model.

4)  In commenting on my use of “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses,” you said in your Rebuttal:

Nick says that “if the believer won’t forgive others, God won’t forgive them.” The best way I have seen this summed up is like this: “Unforgiving means unforgiven.” This means that if a person is unforgiving then they themselves have not known forgiveness. I would also like Nick to tell us if he thinks he himself has perfectly forgiven all those in his life who have harmed him. Is it even possible for him to remember this accurately? Yes, we should be forgiving if we have been forgiven but we are kidding ourselves if we think we can forgive others in a way that meets God’s standard.

One of the most explicit passages that someone can be forgiven and yet turn to sin and be damned is Matthew 18:21-35. I mentioned Matthew 18:21-35 in my Opening Essay, but you didn’t comment upon it in your rebuttal. In light of your comment that a person who wont forgive means they were never originally forgiven: how do you explain the teaching of Matthew 18:23-35 (particularly verse 35) as well as your own admission Christians don’t always forgive?

I am not sure I completely comprehend Nick’s question here but I will do what I can to answer. One important factor in interpreting this passage is that it is a parable. Most modern commentators understand that parables usually have one main point and some of the details may be incidental to the telling of the story. This is not literary hair splitting, for it appears that Nick may be interpreting this passage as an allegory, in which almost every detail of the story has a spiritual meaning.

To see what I mean, check out the end of the story in Matthew 18:34: “And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.” The ESV has a footnote explaining that jailers mean “torturers” in Greek and most translations denote this. These are guards whose sole job was to torture prisoners. We know that hell is eternal torment, true, but If this is a one-to-one allegory, then who would the torturers be? Certainly not demons! This helps us see that every detail is not an exact parallel. Another example is the fact that he was thrown in jail until he could pay all his debt. But who could pay all that debt (especially in jail)? No one! Lastly, it does not seem likely that Jesus (whom Nick would see as the king, whereas I would be more inclined to just see a story proving a point) would call a true disciple of his a “wicked servant”.

Following Craig Blomberg, we can boil the parable down to this: “God eternally and unconditionally forgives those who repent of so immense a debt against him that it is unconscionable for believers to refuse to grant forgiveness to each other for sins that remain trivial in comparison.” (New American Commentary, Broadman, 1992, p. 282). Nick’s assessment that Matthew 18:21-35 is “one of the most explicit passages that someone can be forgiven and yet turn to sin and be damned” is certainly not well founded.

I encourage the audience to go back and read Nick’s opening statement, you will note that he never provides a solid exegetical basis for the claim but rather assumes his brief description of the passage is equivalent to its true meaning. His commentary runs a mere 50 words, only 19 of which is interpretation; the other 31 are just his description of the parable. I respect Nick and appreciate his zeal but this sort of exegesis simply will not wash.

5) Two important passages I quoted but didn’t see you comment upon were Luke 8:13 (“The ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.”) and Matthew 24:12-13 (“Because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”) I want you to exegete these two passages (since the passages are similar enough), making sure to touch upon “believe for a while,” falling away, love growing cold, and “will be saved.”

In looking at Luke 8:13, it may help to look at the flow of the whole chapter. One interesting passage from Luke is Luke 8:18: “for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." It is very telling the text says that “even what he thinks he has,” implying this person does not possess what he thinks he does! The preceding verse is Luke 8:17, which says, “For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.” In judgment, it will made known those who are truly his own.

Before I end this section of my responses, I should make mention of the context of Luke 8, in that Luke 8:4-15 contain the Parable of the Sower. There are some related points to make here. For  example, verse 12 says the devil takes away the word “so that they may not believe and be saved.” Note that one is saved by believing and that these folks have not yet believed – they are not true believers. The next group receives it with joy (v. 13) but fall away in a time of testing. This group displays a nominal, superficial, emotional, and non-saving faith. It’s important to pick up on the fact that they have no root. It’s obvious they were never saved. The next group (v. 14) are epitomized by the rich young ruler (Luke 8:18-30), who was never a follower of Jesus. Key to understanding all this is that only the last group is called “good soil” (v. 15).

On Matthew 24:12-13 ... those of us who understand the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints to be biblically-based do not believe that every professing Christian remains a professing Christian but rather that every one who is truly Christ’s will be upheld by the power of his sure hand and therefore persevere. In Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking on persecution that will cause many professing believers to fall away. This means they will stop professing and stop associating with true believers – their love will grow cold. The threat of physical violence against them reveals their true colors; we see a similar scenario described in the book of Hebrews.

The phrase “fall away” is from skandalizo and means to stumble or to take offense; it doesn’t necessarily mean “to lose your salvation.” This makes sense in the context of the passage. We should also note the presence of false prophets in the mix. The false prophets are false believers and other false believers will follow them. All of this language makes perfect sense to describe a great shaking up in the visible church due to an increase in persecution. How else could Jesus have said it? 

One does not have to read this discourse as describing true believers losing their salvation – for the text does not demand it. If one already assumes that true believers can and do lose their salvation, then I suppose they would be so inclined to read it that way but that does not mean the text actually warrants such a reading. One other consideration is that the logic of Matthew 7:23: “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” should factor in as we interpret what Jesus was saying here (incidentally – or not – both texts include the word ‘lawlessness’).

Some Dispensational commentators think the “saved” of Matthew 24:13 does not refer to eternal life but rather physical deliverance. While I do not think that is likely (at all), it is often to helpful to consider rival interpretations before one selects one as the best. In saying this, I know that Nick as a Roman Catholic can not do this because any rival interpretations on this chapter and these few verses do not line up with Roman Catholic teaching. I ask the reader to then consider what is a more legit handling of all the Scriptural data.

By way of illustration, as a Protestant, I could accept as possibly valid a number of views on these verses. An Arminian (as I once was) would actually agree with Nick’s/Rome’s view and so it is not “off limits” for a Protestant to consider that this verse is actually designed to teach us that true believers will lose their actual salvation. Of course, I do not think this view is accurate, but I don’t think those who think this are unbelievers per se. These are just some thoughts I hope folks honestly consider as they examine both of our arguments on these passages.

As a final remark, please keep in mind that Scripture does teach that those who are saved must necessarily persevere; meaning that if they are saved they will and if they are not, then they won’t. So, from both angles one could say perseverance is necessary. If one does not persevere then they will not be saved no matter what they professed because they were never saved anyway. Perseverance is a requirement in a sense but God equips those who are truly saved with a sovereign and sustaining grace that enables them to keep said requirement. Once again, we persevere only because he preserves – shame on us if we dare think we can do it any other way!

Eternal Security Debate - Nick's 5 CrossEx Answers

Eternal Security Debate

Nick’s 5 Cross-Examination Answers

Question 1: Is it possible to lose and regain your salvation thousands of times within one life? Or is there a limit to how many times one can be saved? How does one re-gain their salvation after they have lost it?

Answer: A Christian can fall into grave sin, lose their salvation, then repent (especially through the Sacrament of Confession) to recover their salvation, all on any given day of their life. God, in His infinite Mercy, could allow this to happen “thousands of times within one life,” but there is by no means any guarantee. On one hand, we see Christ telling Peter he must forgive his neighbor “seventy times seven times” (Mat 18:21-22), which Christians have always understood to roughly mean “as often as necessary,” and not a strict math problem with a sin-forgiveness limit of 490 times per person. This suggests God would deal with His children on similar (if not more ‘generous’) grounds. On the other hand, the Bible warns that we must persevere, that God’s mercy is not mocked, and He can call you to judgment any time...so any time you fall into grave sin could be your “last chance” (e.g. Mat 24:44). There is really no absolute and definitive answer to your question, only guidelines.

From a practical standpoint, a Christian should never become complacent, and rather should be striving to grow in holiness every day. As one grows in holiness, they will undoubtedly be faced with greater attacks by the devil, which God and the Saints who have gone before us teach very clearly. Because of this, God certainly provides even greater graces in proportion to the attacks, increasing the growth potential in holiness. The Catholic ‘rule of thumb’ is that the more one prays and lives a holy life and receives the Sacraments (like Eucharist and Confession) frequently, the less likely they are to fall into grave sin (though such a danger is never fully eliminated).


Question 2. Please explain the (apparent?) inconsistency in your view that the Roman Catholic Church could never become apostate and yet every single one its members and leaders could lose their salvation at any given time (similarly, do you believe the Pope himself could permanently lose his salvation?).

Answer: The shortest and most succinct answer to your question is “Divine Providence.” I think the best way to demonstrate this is by drawing a parallel: Though every Bible is the Word of God, it is still subject to being lost, destroyed, or corrupted. Yet God, in His Divine Providence, has always preserved the Bible in every generation, in spite of the many Bibles that have been lost, destroyed, or corrupted. No Protestant or Catholic who believes in Scripture’s plenary Inspiration and Inerrancy would deny this extraordinary miracle and truth.

Now with that in mind, we can see why there is in fact no logical inconsistency with a Catholic claiming Divine Providence extends further, to include the Church. Despite the fact all members are still capable of falling into sin, God, in His Providence, would not let His Divine Institution, the Church as a Body, fall away. In fact, if the Church is truly the Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head, as Scripture clearly teaches, then the Church is (despite sinful members) in a very real sense Indefectible (since Christ’s Body, by nature, has a Divine element to it). In short: God assures that not all members of His Body, especially not all members of the Magisterium, would never universally fall away (just as Jesus protected the original band of Apostles from collectively falling away).

As for whether the Pope could lose his salvation, the answer is “yes”. Peter, the first pope, lost his salvation when he denied Christ. Of course, since salvation can be recovered after genuine repentance, anyone (including a pope) can recover their salvation. That said, anyone (including a pope) who falls into grave sin and loses their salvation may not repent before departing this life, and thus they would be damned.


Question 3. I assume you hold that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, infinite power, and a purpose for all that He does. On your view, God knows all those whom He will truly save only to have them lose their salvation later.
What then do you think is God’s purpose in giving someone a new heart, coming to dwell within them, and uniting them to Christ , only later to have them undo the whole process?

Answer: This is probably one of the biggest and most difficult questions mankind has to face, right along with “why did God create the world knowing it would become corrupted?”and “why does God allow so much suffering?,” etc. I wont pretend to have a sufficient answer. All we can do is speculate, based on certain principles we know to be true. For example, God hates sin and could never command it, thus whenever sin takes place, it is the individual that is at fault and thus culpable. Given that, God can choose to punish that individual in any way He deemed proper, or He could have mercy to the degree He deemed proper. (I want to add that God is not arbitrary in any of the way He deals with sinners, and His decisions actually reflect a very real Divine ‘fairness’, ‘love’, and ‘justice’ that transcends our human understanding of these concepts.) Another principle (that is no less Mysterious than the one already mentioned) is that God only allows sin so that either a greater good may result or to avoid a greater evil. Thus we see the amazing passage of Scripture, “where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.”

In regards to a Christian falling away and eventually being damned, all we can be sure of is that (1) the Christian must have deliberately turned to grave sin, and (2) God allowed this for a greater good. Any speculation beyond that is just that, speculation, and we’re all aware of the various difficulties that arise when we try to pry into the transcendent plans and operations of God. As a final thought, though this is not a historical debate, since the only Christian group that believes in Eternal Security is the Reformed (Calvinists), this means that all the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and non-Reformed Protestants throughout history have pondered over these difficult things.


Question 4. You’ve stated numerous times during this debate that Judas was truly saved and then lost his salvation. Please give us a few lines of biblical evidence where we can see any clear signs that Judas was ever regenerate.

Answer: I’d say the strongest evidence that Judas was regenerate is that he was called by Christ to be one of the Twelve Apostles. The primary purpose of Christ calling The Twelve was to be a spring board to spread the Gospel to the world. The various texts of the Gospels that speak of Jesus originally calling the Twelve and listing off their names speak as follows: “[Jesus] called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction. The names of the twelve apostles are these...” (Mat 10:1-4; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-15). The entirety of Matthew 10 is essentially one big mission statement to the Twelve (Mat 11:1). This presupposes salvation, else the appointment would be sterile; if Judas wasn’t saved, he wouldn’t be able to do these functions of an Apostle, just as a never saved individual cannot technically truly be appointed to any Church office. Just before Pentecost when Peter recalls Judas’ life he says: “[Judas] was one of our number and shared in our ministry” (Acts 1:17), strongly suggesting Judas was originally on their side. The only distinguishing remark (for obvious reasons) in these lists of the Apostles is that when it comes to Judas, the texts add he was the one who would “betray” Jesus, and not then but in the future. But to “betray” someone indicates a pre-existing relationship, since betrayal is essentially back-stabbing. Further, nowhere do we read Judas “never really believed,” nor are such descriptions really taught about anyone in Scripture.
When it comes to John’s accounts of Judas, the two main passages of interest are John 6:66-71 and John 17:12.

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The way John 6b is structured, verse 66 is speaking of those who couldn't accept “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:52-56), and thus “no longer walked with Jesus.” But this isn’t speaking of the Twelve. Turning to get the answer of the Twelve, the leader of the Apostles, Peter, re-affirms their faith in Him (implying Judas was also in agreement). Verse 70, when Jesus calls Judas a “devil,” could be construed to mean Judas was unregenerate, but given what’s already been said earlier in this answer, verse 71 indicates the reason Judas was to be known as such a bad guy was his future betrayal, nothing about any earlier sins or unbelief. (The term “devil” here, since not speaking of a literal demon, more accurately means “slanderer”.) In John 13, we see the text saying just prior to the Last Supper is when the betrayal took place, when it says Satan "entered Judas” (indicating Judas gave into consenting to the sin of betrayal). This leads to John 17:12, where Jesus says He protected those given to Him by the Father, specifically the Twelve, and that the only one to get “lost” was Judas, implying that Judas was originally not-lost.

The last text to examine is Matthew 27:3-5, where Judas recognizes he betrayed an innocent man, “changed his mind” (some translations render this “repented”), and returned the blood-money. While not proof that Judas was eventually saved (since being called the “Son of Perdition” strongly implies damnation), it suggests Judas wasn’t an unregenerate from the start but instead threw everything he did have away with one monstrous sin.


Question 5. In Matthew 7:22-23 Jesus said, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'” In my rebuttal essay I discussed the emphatic nature of the word ‘never’ and that Jesus could have said “I don’t know you now” or “I used to know you” – but he didn’t.
We also see in John 10:14 Jesus said, “ I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me.” Here we have Jesus saying that he knows His own and yet he says to the many on that day "I never knew you;" how does Roman Catholic theology reconcile all these facts together?

Answer: There are two ways Matthew 7:22-23 can be read: (1) that these folks were flat out never saved in the first place, and only did these “mighty works” for show, to deceive others, or self gain; or (2) Jesus was speaking hyperbolically (i.e. He didn’t need to say “I don’t know you now”), and thus the emphasis on “never knew” is a form of strongly condemning believers who fell away. The first option seems the most plausible, and makes things easier to respond to.

As I respond more fully, the key to keep in mind is that:

• in Protestantism (specifically Calvinism), there are two classes of people: (a) those who never believe, and (b) those who believe

• in Catholicism, there are three classes of people: (a) those who never believe, (b) those who believe and persevere, and (c) those who believe for a while but fall away later on

As you can see, the categories “a” and “b” are pretty similar for both Protestants and Catholics. With that, I can see both Protestantism and Catholicism reconcile those (and similar) verses together pretty easily. A text like Matthew 7:22f would fall into the “a” category. In regards to John 10 (not forgetting the actions in the present tense), the context is of true believers and thus the individuals fall into category ‘b’ or ‘c’. Since there is no overlap between ‘a’ and ‘b’/‘c’, there is nothing to ‘reconcile’, only properly categorizing them. This debate is really about whether category ‘c’ is Biblical or not, which I maintain it is, and is the only way to accurately interpret the passages about losing salvation I’ve put forth in my Opening Essay. 

Eternal Security Debate - Vocab's 5 Questions for Nick

Eternal Security Debate

Vocab's 5 Questions for Nick

by Vocab (Link)

 

1. Is it possible to lose and regain your salvation thousands of times within one life? Or is there a limit to how many times one can be saved? How does one re-gain their salvation after they have lost it?

2. Please explain the (apparent?) inconsistency in your view that the Roman Catholic Church could never become apostate and yet every single one its members and leaders could lose their salvation at any given time (similarly, do you believe the Pope himself could permanently lose his salvation?).

3. I assume you hold that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, infinite power, and a purpose for all that He does. On your view, God knows all those whom He will truly save only to have them lose their salvation later.

What then do you think is God’s purpose in giving someone a new heart, coming to dwell within them, and uniting them to Christ , only later to have them undo the whole process?

4. You’ve stated numerous times during this debate that Judas was truly saved and then lost his salvation. Please give us a few lines of biblical evidence where we can see any clear signs that Judas was ever regenerate.

5. In Matthew 7:22-23 Jesus said, “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'” In my rebuttal essay I discussed the emphatic nature of the word ‘never’ and that Jesus could have said “I don’t know you now” or “I used to know you” – but he didn’t. 

We also see in John 10:14 Jesus said, “ I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me.” Here we have Jesus saying that he knows His own and yet he says to the many on that day "I never knew you;" how does Roman Catholic theology reconcile all these facts together?