Such irony! Rome has an epidemic of MEN molesting BOYS! Not just homosexuality, but homosexual assault!
When one considers that Luther's divorce teaching was one of the things that drove the engine of the reformation, it shouldn't surprise anyone that other sexual sins would enter the picture.
Vocab, Please address the arguments I presented. For example, how is the Bible's prohibition of homosexuality different from it's prohibition of eating pork? I don't want to go on a tangent of the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church because (a) it doesn't decide anything on the doctrinal level, only that some men were not faithful Christians, (b) the abuse problem is far worse in Protestant denominations and public schools, but these are largely ignored by the media.
Nick -Sure, I'm glad you asked! Here is a sermon I gave on 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - http://vimeo.com/52362992BTW, none of the arguments we would give are along the lines of because the people in charge at Rome say so. When that is part of your process, you always have the possibility that 'the man' can change his mind. Fortunately, the Scripture can not be broken!vm
Actually, it is Rome that is soft on homosexuality because Trent condemned the Reformers for teaching that concupiscence, the desire to sin (which includes homosexual desire), is itself sinful
I clicked onto Vocab's video. He failed to mention that the sequence of 1 washed 2 sanctified 3 justified fits nicely into the Catholic scheme which says Baptism is the sacrament of sanctification/justification. Protestants say Justification/Salvation is by Faith Alone. Baptism is then merely an act of obedience that is done later.
^^Thank you for checking out the sermon. Yes, you are correct I do not speak on Rome in the video. That was not relevant to the thrust of the passage. And in this post, the main topic was Protestants, Rome, and homosexuality. But I do (with a friend, who also happens to be a pro-life activist) speak on Rome's view of authority and salvation in this video - http://vimeo.com/46962650Back to the topic, it seems odd for a Roman Catholic to blog like this when men such as Sergius III, Pope Alexander VI and Pope John XII are part of their "legacy".
Vocab, I did not listen to all of your sermon, but I listened to the part where you talked about homosexuality. I thought you did a good job addressing the etymology of the terms, but this didn't touch upon my challenge/questions. For example, you said the word for homosexuality hearkened back to the Greek OT of Leviticus that condemned homosexual acts. This is a great connection to make. But it doesn't address the "no pork" argument I made. In fact, why should Leviticus' 'no pork' be abandoned with impunity and yet Leviticus' no homosexuality remains? Unless there's more to the story, saying no to homosexuality is simply a temporary ban on an otherwise acceptable practice.
I did indeed click onto Vocab Malone's vimeo sermon on justification. The first half was an attempt to debunk the papacy by using Cyprian and other fathers.( Pretty weak). After 45 minutes Malone's fellow speaker, Jason Walsh ( a lapsed Catholic ) spoke on justification. He held a copy of Jimmy Akin's SALVATION CONTROVERSY in his hand while criticizing it for not addressing the texts dealing with imputation. Followers of this blog can save themselves the trouble as Nick has shown beyond a doubt that the reformers got Paul wrong on this point.
Vocab Malone said...Such irony! Rome has an epidemic of MEN molesting BOYS! Not just homosexuality, but homosexual assault!Big difference. Any sins committed by any Catholics are done in spite of Catholic Teaching. Whereas, Protestants have mainlined sin. They have committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, calling that which is evil, good and that which is good, evil.For example: Protestants do not condemn divorce and remarriage. Whereas Christ said:Matthew 5:32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.They have also legitimized abortion, same sex marriage, gay ministers, contraception and masturbation, claiming that these things are good. Whereas they are sinful.
Vocab Malone said...^^Thank you for checking out the sermon. ....Back to the topic, it seems odd for a Roman Catholic to blog like this when men such as Sergius III, Pope Alexander VI and Pope John XII are part of their "legacy".If you are claiming that these men are somehow evil, I stand with my previous remark. Any sin they committed is against the Teaching of the Catholic Church. Not because of it.Yet, the Protestants are committing sins which their churches have legitimized and in some cases call them necessary.
Vocab appeals to certain fathers against the Papacy. Does he know what the early Church fathers taught on abortion and contraception? Name one mainline denomination hasn't endorsed these sins as okay if done by married couples? Sorry Vocab, but only the Church built on Peter has held firm for 2,000 years. He isn't even in sync with the magisterial Deformers who all condemned contraception as forms of sodomy with as much zeal as they taught Faith Alone.
I'll start taking the Roman church's stance on homosexuality seriously when it starts disciplining its priests and theologians that advocate or practice the sin. A church that allowed Mary Daly, a lesbian pagan, to teach theology for about 3 decades at a Jesuit institution, is in no position to declare how faithful it has been on sexual morality.At least in Protestant denominations that believe the Bible, such individuals are disciplined.
Nick, I greatly appreciate your comments. As far as a reason now to forbid homosexuality? How about 1 Corinthians 6:9-11: "... do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived..." Honestly, I don't see why the question you raise about this is considered such a challenge!Again, Thank you so much for your analysis of the relevant portion of the sermon video. vm
Anonymous said...I'll start taking the Roman church's stance on homosexuality seriously when it starts disciplining its priests and theologians that advocate or practice the sin.The Church has always done so. A church that allowed Mary Daly, a lesbian pagan, to teach theology for about 3 decades at a Jesuit institution, is in no position to declare how faithful it has been on sexual morality.Purportedly Catholic universities in the US have been disobeying the Church for years. The Church has tried to rein them in, but ultimately they will be disciplined by God.]At least in Protestant denominations that believe the Bible, such individuals are disciplined.How? By making them Bishops?http://www.themonastery.org/blog/2013/01/a-gradient-in-the-ability-to-become-ordained/
To De Maria and the other (anon.) posters:As mentioned by others, there is plenty of liberalism in Rome. Most of them I meet in day day to life are nominal, cultural, or relativists. The only place I meet conservatives is when I do pro-life work. And there we are teaming up for a common cause - saving babies!As far as protestants saying all those sins you mentioned are 'OK' - I have never been a part of that kind of thing and most Calvinists (or conservative Charismatics or traditional Wesleyans, for that matter) aren't like that anyway.So, I really don't know what you're talking about, unless you strictly mean groups like the PCUSA or the ELCA. If that is what you mean, I encourage you to listen to this show I recorded, where we discuss this very issue and why it is unbiblical and causes many problems - http://backpack.podbean.com/2012/07/08/the-decline-of-the-mainlines-07082012/Thxvm
To De Maria and the other (anon.) posters:As mentioned by others, there is plenty of liberalism in Rome. Most of them I meet in day day to life are nominal, cultural, or relativists.Then you have met Catholics who are disobeying the Church. But their sins are in spite of Catholic Teaching, not because of it.The only place I meet conservatives is when I do pro-life work. And there we are teaming up for a common cause - saving babies!You still don't get it. Who made you judge of the righteous and unrighteous? God alone judges His people.Romans 14:4Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.As far as protestants saying all those sins you mentioned are 'OK' - I have never been a part of that kind of thing and most Calvinists (or conservative Charismatics or traditional Wesleyans, for that matter) aren't like that anyway.Which ones of them preach against masturbation, contraception, divorce and remarriage? As far as I am aware they all allow those sins and consider them their personal right to engage in.So, I really don't know what you're talking about, unless you strictly mean groups like the PCUSA or the ELCA. If that is what you mean, I encourage you to listen to this show I recorded, where we discuss this very issue and why it is unbiblical and causes many problems Its not all about you. I don't know half of what your talking about either. But this I know. All sinners commit their sins in contradiction of Catholic Doctrine.This I also know. Protestants have permitted many sins to be legitimized. And they legitimize more and more sins day by day.ThxvmYou're welcome.De Maria
Vocab, The "problem" I have with your answer (appealing to 1 Cor 6:9-11) is that without a consistent moral theology, the "sin" of homosexuality cannot be seen as wrong because of the act being inherently sinful, but rather only sinful because God wants a temporary ban on it (just like no pork). For example, a big name somewhat Reformed pastor, Mark Driscoll, came out last year as saying sodomy of one's wife (within marriage) is allowed. If that's so, then why is homosexuality wrong? It's the same act.
Sadly, Mark Driscoll was once a Catholic. He says he was an altar boy. As a protestant, he named one of his sons Calvin and the other one Martin ( after Luther )! Neither of these Deformers were know for living holy lives. Luther was totally disturbed as is evidenced by his penchant for the fecal art of Lucas Cranach, his foul language, visions of the devil, fear of lightening, lying about giving Philip of Hesse permission to have two wives, hatred for Jews, scrupulosity, fear and hatred for God, teaching that Christ committed adultery with the woman at the well, etc. etc.
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