tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post5376567218124305280..comments2024-03-15T09:07:15.798-07:00Comments on NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: The Pope's Infallible Interpretation of Isaiah 53 (More Problems with Penal Substitution)Nickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-44306119871016905242018-03-06T11:31:03.297-08:002018-03-06T11:31:03.297-08:00Well done Nick. I have been a Protestant my whole ...Well done Nick. I have been a Protestant my whole life. And I testify that your analysis is truth.<br /><br />Your fellow servantAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-16121565220396470022016-03-26T01:18:08.538-07:002016-03-26T01:18:08.538-07:00"Peter a "pope"? You mean, that mar..."Peter a "pope"? You mean, that married apostle, known as Simon Peter? Funny he is never called that in the Bible, and the ONLY OFFICES listed in Scripture are Apostle, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers-Eph 4:11-3. No Popes, priests, cardinals, nuns, lying Jesuit-snakes, etc. Romanism is Pagan-Rome transformed into Papal Rome."<br /><br />Neither was the term Trinity mentioned in the Bible. So, maybe you should wash your hands of all this Christian nonsense in addition to the first 1500 years?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-37354165409004515772015-04-17T21:22:02.307-07:002015-04-17T21:22:02.307-07:00This is rather comical to claim Peter was a Pope, ...This is rather comical to claim Peter was a Pope, seeing this diabolical office didn't exist for hundreds of years after Peter, WHO WAS NEVER IN ROME, in which the prophesied apostasy could take place. <br /><br />Peter a "pope"? You mean, that married apostle, known as Simon Peter? Funny he is never called that in the Bible, and the ONLY OFFICES listed in Scripture are Apostle, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers-Eph 4:11-3. No Popes, priests, cardinals, nuns, lying Jesuit-snakes, etc. Romanism is Pagan-Rome transformed into Papal Rome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-14621749646600026432013-08-21T11:07:22.637-07:002013-08-21T11:07:22.637-07:00@Nick,
Sorry for the sloppy language. I meant &qu...@Nick,<br /><br />Sorry for the sloppy language. I meant "unjust suffering" in terms of unearned or unmerited suffering. Even those affirming PSA believe that Christ did nothing in himself to deserve the punishment He took on. <br /><br />Peace,<br />John D. JohnDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-34209614534697326732013-08-18T17:27:08.453-07:002013-08-18T17:27:08.453-07:00*Go back a few chapters, "Who is as blind as ...*Go back a few chapters, "Who is as blind as my servant?" That's Jesus? Yes, its the same Israel.*<br /><br />It would have some relevance IF all chapters were all from the same sentence and hold some semantic revelance.<br /><br />Saying that Is 42 is just a continuation of Is 53 is a bit baseless!<br /><br /><br />*Generally its been idolatry,*<br /><br />Among many others, like the killing of prophets...<br /><br />*but that was left behind after the Babylonian captivity, so you're just an antisemite.*<br /><br />It doesn't affect the argument. <br /><br />And 53:8 says 'for the transgression of my people he was punished'. The servant and the people aren't the same thing?<br /><br />Also, what about the 'no deceit in your mouth'?<br /><br />Also: There are many Jewish sources who identify the Servant of Is 53 to a man, not an entity like a nation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-79165242937460991292013-08-18T09:22:23.375-07:002013-08-18T09:22:23.375-07:00Go back a few chapters, "Who is as blind as m...Go back a few chapters, "Who is as blind as my servant?" That's Jesus? Yes, its the same Israel.<br /><br />"because Israel isn't as saint and pure" -- what is their sin? Generally its been idolatry, but that was left behind after the Babylonian captivity, so you're just an antisemite.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372463300223880001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-3906033041731045092013-08-17T20:24:19.742-07:002013-08-17T20:24:19.742-07:00*The text of Isaiah specifically identifies the Se...*The text of Isaiah specifically identifies the Servant as Israel,*<br /><br />But certainly is not the same Israel as the national descendency of Abraham - because Israel isn't as saint and pure as the description of Is 53. In fact, Jerusalem was a 'prophet killer' nation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-75175391063044796812013-08-16T17:39:55.728-07:002013-08-16T17:39:55.728-07:00The text of Isaiah specifically identifies the Ser...The text of Isaiah specifically identifies the Servant as Israel, so you are arguing with real scripture not me. The fake scriptures do need to go: all they do is lead to idolatry, to worshiping a dead rabbi as part of an amalgamated abomination of a schizophrenic multiple personality pagan deity.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372463300223880001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-69235207977249424642013-08-16T15:39:58.293-07:002013-08-16T15:39:58.293-07:00JohnD,
You said: "Christ's unjust suffe...JohnD, <br /><br />You said: "Christ's unjust suffering certainly merits salvation for His elect, but this is true whether one holds to PSA or a satisfaction theory of the atonement."<br /><br />This comment doesn't work because you're forced to either suggest PSA involved unjust suffering, which is a contradiction, or that this unjust suffering happened alongside PSA, at which point PSA and unjust suffering are distinct and thus Peter could only have been referring to unjust suffering and ignored the PSA aspect. If you say Peter ignored the PSA aspect, then there goes yet another proof-text for proving PSA, leaving PSA scrambling to find Biblical proof elsewhere. <br /><br />Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-63293979253764787742013-08-16T15:35:05.196-07:002013-08-16T15:35:05.196-07:00James,
If Jesus isn't the Suffering Servant ...James, <br /><br />If Jesus isn't the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, then you must throw out at least Matthew, Luke, and Acts, since these explicitly quote Isaiah 53 in regards to Jesus. <br /><br />The idea that Israel fulfills Isaiah 53 better than Jesus is inconceivable. The Jews as a whole have basically been silent for 2,000 years, doing almost nothing to be the Light to the Nations. There was certainly a shift 2,000 years ago, and the razing of Jerusalem in 70AD is not something insignificant. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-12048724000323549882013-08-14T08:10:52.654-07:002013-08-14T08:10:52.654-07:00The pope's role differs mainly in that He does...The pope's role differs mainly in that He does not present any new public revelation. That ended with the death of the last apostle.<br /><br />His charism along with the full magisterium of the church (the teaching office) is to protect and defend that public revelation against error and to clarify it when heresies arise.<br /><br />Without this divine protection, Christian faith and morals would reduce to the competing opinions of men. Something that is already rampant in non-Catholic communities.<br />John Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-48425001464276342312013-08-11T08:32:54.715-07:002013-08-11T08:32:54.715-07:00If Peter is a pope does that mean that the pope is...If Peter is a pope does that mean that the pope is an apostle to? Is the current pope considered an apostle like the 12 and Paul? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-26565661352283026002013-08-10T12:45:48.781-07:002013-08-10T12:45:48.781-07:00The Jewish interpretation is more infallible. Sta...The Jewish interpretation is more infallible. Start reading from Isaiah 40 on and keep going.<br /><br />How many times from Isaiah 40 to Isaiah 53 do we encounter "Israel my servant, Jacob my chosen" and "Israel my chosen, Jacob my servant" -- seriously, count them!<br /><br />So by the time we arrive at the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 we know who the servant is.<br /><br />Israel is often spoke of as singular "he" in Scripture. If you don't know that, you're biblically illiterate. So that is no objection.<br /><br />Furthermore, what does the end of Isaiah 52 say? The Gentile kings have all of the sudden realized a great truth, and it is they who speak in Isaiah 53. What did they realize?<br /><br />They realized that Israel was not being beaten for its own sins, but for theirs. As its said in another place in the prophets, Israel has paid DOUBLE for its sins. Why double? Because it has borne the sins of the nations as well. It was bruised for our sins, and by its stripes we are healed. It was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers, it opened not its mouth. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372463300223880001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-21603430685011290032013-08-06T19:24:47.937-07:002013-08-06T19:24:47.937-07:00Nick,
I am not seeing what exactly in your explan...Nick,<br /><br />I am not seeing what exactly in your explanations above is inconsistent with PSA. <br /><br />Your major point seems to be: <b>But enduring unjust suffering has a meritorious quality about it, since you're suffering for the noble purpose of serving God and exemplifying love of neighbor. It is the patient enduring of unjust suffering that is how the Pope describes how "Christ suffered for you" (v21), and that this was to be an example for how we should patiently endure suffering.</b> <br /><br />In response:<br /><br />1. Christ's unjust suffering certainly merits salvation for His elect, but this is true whether one holds to PSA or a satisfaction theory of the atonement. <br /><br />2. We are called to follow Christ's example and so by enduring unjust suffering we are obedient to God's commands and can find favor in His sight. However, this does not mean we <b>merit salvation</b> or <b>merit salvific grace</b> or <b>merit grace for others</b> by our suffering. At least, the text does not strictly imply such an understanding. <br /><br />3. Peter's statement that Christ "bore our sins" can be construed as consistent with PSA theory as well as a satisfaction theory.<br /><br />The main point is that nothing you presented shows how this text is incompatible PSA. If there is, please make the inconsistency clearer.<br /><br />Peace,<br />John D. JohnDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-85681969086010488992013-08-06T11:02:32.619-07:002013-08-06T11:02:32.619-07:00Good point!Good point!JohnDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-88776660125417954842013-08-05T10:08:51.507-07:002013-08-05T10:08:51.507-07:00Is it not clear that Nick is speaking about the 1s...Is it not clear that Nick is speaking about the 1st Pope Peter, and that the letter is 1Peter?<br /><br />Protestants do accept scripture as inerrant.<br /><br />So when Peter quotes directly from Isaiah 53, one would think that His interpretation should trump the Reformed speculation about Isaiah 53 being a proof text for PSA and the Father literally taking out His wrath on Jesus.<br /><br /><br /><br />John Wnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-80843284278486447772013-08-04T18:16:17.200-07:002013-08-04T18:16:17.200-07:00What makes you think this Pope's letter is inf...What makes you think this Pope's letter is infallible?JohnDnoreply@blogger.com