tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post4203269835378942625..comments2024-03-15T09:07:15.798-07:00Comments on NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: Faith Alone ObliteratedNickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-21711612690846089632020-04-13T02:38:52.056-07:002020-04-13T02:38:52.056-07:00Hi Catholic Nick,
Protestants are dropping like f...Hi Catholic Nick,<br /><br />Protestants are dropping like flies to the Thesis Question of James 2:14. <br /><br />Protestants cannot let go of Sola Fide. As I continue to as the Thesis Question: <br />Can Faith Alone Save You, I continually get "Yes you are saved by Faith Alone, aka, Sola Fide. I bring up the fact that the Holy Spirit answers this Thesis Question thru James 2:24 in the NEGATIVE. <br /><br />James 2:24 ~ <br />You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.<br /><br />And here is the Protestant answer to the Thesis Question of James 2:14 <br /><br />Luther 2:24 ~<br />You see that a man IS JUSTIFIED by faith alone. <br /><br /><br />Luther 2:24 is the exact opposite of James 2:24. <br /><br />I go on and state:<br /><br />Both cannot be correct. I choose James 2:24. You choose Luther 2:24. <br /><br /><br />I am adding this argument to my new series on YouTube: The Protestant Scripture Twister Series. Luther 2:24. <br /><br />Blessings on this day after the Resurrection (4/13/20),<br /><br />Ryan Zell<br /><br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678826505740647618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-86832879413408852262011-12-15T13:55:38.073-08:002011-12-15T13:55:38.073-08:00cont'd
Russell said:
while trusting His work...cont'd<br /><br />Russell said:<br /><i> while trusting His work alone (as the Scriptures teach).</i><br /><br />And why do you keep insinuating that Catholics trust in their works alone? That is not Catholic Teaching. If it is, show me.<br /><br /><i> I don’t mean that one never does works. You then went on to call “surrendering” a “work.” I believe that you are forced to keep bouncing back and forth. On the one hand, you continue to say that one is not saved by works, and on the other hand, you continue to say we are saved by keeping the commandments and sacraments. And saying things like “faith” and “surrendering” are works is just silly.</i><br /><br />Have you ever tried to surrender? The very fact that I used the word, "tried" shows that surrendering is a VERB. An action. A work. Protestants have a very parochial view of works. According to Protestants, a work must include physically getting up and doing something. But it is not so for Catholics. For us, even our prayers are good works. Even our faith is a good work. Have you ever heard the terminology, "spiritual works of mercy"?<br /><br />For us, surrendering to God is a work of faith and love.<br /><br /><i>De Maria, I can understand your difficult position. I’m not trying to be unkind or sarcastic, but it’s hard to defend the Catholic Church’s teachings when they just don’t line up with the Scriptures.</i><br /><br />Lol. I feel the same way about you. It is difficult to defend Protestant doctrine which doesn't line up with Scripture. Where ever Protestant doctrine contradicts the Catholic Church, it contradicts Scripture.<br /><br /><i> Romans 3-5 help us to understand the nature of justification. It is by faith apart from the merit of works of any kind.</i><br /><br />Is faith meritorious? Who judges this merit? You or God? <i>Ok, we’ve repeated ourselves often and gone on here on Nick’s blog for a very long time. Although this is an extremely important topic, we’ve both made our point, so I think it’s time we set this topic aside (at least for now), and move on to others. Thanks again for the discussion.</i><br /><br />Thank you as well. If you want to continue this discussion, we can do so on my blog or yours. And I'm waiting for your response on related matters which we are discussing on your blog, also.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-4254932829039075612011-12-15T13:53:38.056-08:002011-12-15T13:53:38.056-08:00Russell said:
De Maria, as I said over and over, k...Russell said:<br /><i>De Maria, as I said over and over, keeping the commandments is the right thing to do, but if one thinks he is contributing to his salvation by keeping the commandments, then yes, he is “adding to the work of Christ.”</i><br /><br />You seem very legalistic in your view of salvation. What is this, "contributing" to you salvation? Scripture says:<br />1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both<b> save thyself,</b> and them that hear thee.<br /><br />Is St. Paul WRONG? We can't contribute to our salvation by continuing in the doctrine of Christ, which boils down to keeping the Commandments?<br /><br /><i><br />With that said, I must ask you, what does Paul mean by “apart from the works of the law” in the context of Romans 3:28?</i><br /><br />St. Paul is speaking in reference to the Sacraments, primarily. He is also, however, making the point that we don't save ourselves. God saves those who obey Him. This is an elaboration on the point he already made in Romans 2:13, doers of the law are justified. <br /><br /><i>This is a very important point. You shared a number of Scripture verses in your last few posts, but NONE of them deal with the issue of “How is a man made right with God, how is he saved?” Romans chapter 3 through 5 deals SPECIFICALLY with that issue AT LENGTH, but many Catholics seem to either not deal with this passage at all, or just gloss over it. I think that dealing with this passage will do much to clarify things.</i><br /><br />Actually, I believe it is Protestants who gloss over that passage. But feel free to give me your perspective. <br /><br /> <i>When I say surrender, I mean avoid trusting in any of your works,</i><br /><br />But you trust in your faith claim to save you. So why can't anyone else trust in a concrete, visible faith which works by love to save them?<br /><br />James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.<br /><br />Is it wrong to show one's faith by one's works?<br /><br />cont'dDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-85055120894684327942011-12-15T13:51:55.391-08:002011-12-15T13:51:55.391-08:00Russell said...
No, I am not saying that at all. I...<i>Russell said...<br />No, I am not saying that at all. If one is not keeping the commandments, then his heart is certainly not right. But it is the right condition of the heart which saves a person, not his keeping the commandments. If a person really is saved / justified, he will indeed desire to do (and follow through with) good works. We should obey the commandments, but it is not the obedience to those commandments that saves… it is faith (trusting) in Jesus’ work.</i><br /><br />Then, you save yourself by your faith? Where does God come into the picture?<br /><br />Because the way I see it, in Scripture, God saves those who, because of their faith, obey God and keep the Commandments. The Church calls it "interior disposition". But you tell me, who saves? Do you save yourself? Does your faith save you? Or does God save those who have faith in Him AND obey Him? Or is there another category?<br /><br /><i>Speaking of Paul dealing with the Galatians, you said: “You insinuate that St. Paul has told them not to keep the Commandments.” No, not at all. Paul certainly wanted them to keep the commandments, but he’s condemning their attitude of “I am CAUSING my salvation by keeping the commandments.”</i><br /><br />True. But that is not the Catholic attitude. It is something which you attribute to Catholics. <br /><br />I'll give you a comparison. If you ask a Catholic, "are you saved?" What will 99.999% of Catholics answer? I'll let you fill in the answer. I know that you know, because Protestants harangue us about it constantly.<br /><br />And I know the answer if I should ask a Protestant the same question, "are you saved?" The answer which the typical Protestant will give is, "YES, I was saved on such and such a date." <br /><br />Based upon those two responses, who is relying upon their own works, because the expression of faith is a work, who is relying upon their own works to save them? I say it is Protestants. Because Catholics are taught not to judge ourselves.<br /><br /><i>They were adding the law (circumcision, etc.) to Jesus Christ’s work at Calvary, and thus, according to Paul, deserting Jesus. Concerning salvation, it is either Jesus’ work at Calvary alone, or it is not His work at all.</i><br /><br />But circumcision is not one of the Commandments. The "ordinances" were annulled, but not the Commandments. And Christ Himself added those as a requirement for salvation (Matthew 19:17) along with the corporal works of mercy (Matt 25:31-46).<br /> <br />cont'dDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-69288373398756415172011-12-14T11:43:24.257-08:002011-12-14T11:43:24.257-08:00De Maria,
You said:
“Hm? Ok. So are you saying t...De Maria,<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />“Hm? Ok. So are you saying the opposite? Are you saying that one who does not keep the Commandments can be saved?”<br /><br />No, I am not saying that at all. If one is not keeping the commandments, then his heart is certainly not right. But it is the right condition of the heart which saves a person, not his keeping the commandments. If a person really is saved / justified, he will indeed desire to do (and follow through with) good works. We should obey the commandments, but it is not the obedience to those commandments that saves… it is faith (trusting) in Jesus’ work.<br /><br />Speaking of Paul dealing with the Galatians, you said:<br /><br />“You insinuate that St. Paul has told them not to keep the Commandments.”<br /><br />No, not at all. Paul certainly wanted them to keep the commandments, but he’s condemning their attitude of “I am CAUSING my salvation by keeping the commandments.” They were adding the law (circumcision, etc.) to Jesus Christ’s work at Calvary, and thus, according to Paul, deserting Jesus. Concerning salvation, it is either Jesus’ work at Calvary alone, or it is not His work at all.<br /><br />I had asked:<br /><br />“So, which part of my description is not right?”<br /><br />And you answered:<br /><br />“The part where you insinuate that keeping the Commandments is adding to the work of Christ, as though it is somehow evil to do so.”<br /><br />De Maria, as I said over and over, keeping the commandments is the right thing to do, but if one thinks he is contributing to his salvation by keeping the commandments, then yes, he is “adding to the work of Christ.” With that said, I must ask you, what does Paul mean by “apart from the works of the law” in the context of Romans 3:28?<br /><br />This is a very important point. You shared a number of Scripture verses in your last few posts, but NONE of them deal with the issue of “How is a man made right with God, how is he saved?” Romans chapter 3 through 5 deals SPECIFICALLY with that issue AT LENGTH, but many Catholics seem to either not deal with this passage at all, or just gloss over it. I think that dealing with this passage will do much to clarify things.<br /><br />I had said:<br /><br />“In contrast, Protestants are saved by SURRENDERING to God (not working); a trusting and believing, an exercising of faith, apart from works (Romans 3:28) to be saved.”<br /><br />And you responded:<br /><br />“Surrendering? Really? Is that a sort of magic word? Instead of obeying or submitting or believing, you surrender? We use that word also. Are you now going to use a different word because the Catholic Church teaches we must surrender to God?”<br /><br />When I say surrender, I mean avoid trusting in any of your works, while trusting His work alone (as the Scriptures teach). I don’t mean that one never does <br />works. You then went on to call “surrendering” a “work.” I believe that you are forced to keep bouncing back and forth. On the one hand, you continue to say that one is not saved by works, and on the other hand, you continue to say we are saved by keeping the commandments and sacraments. And saying things like “faith” and “surrendering” are works is just silly.<br /><br />De Maria, I can understand your difficult position. I’m not trying to be unkind or sarcastic, but it’s hard to defend the Catholic Church’s teachings when they just don’t line up with the Scriptures. Romans 3-5 help us to understand the nature of justification. It is by faith apart from the merit of works of any kind.<br /><br />Ok, we’ve repeated ourselves often and gone on here on Nick’s blog for a very long time. Although this is an extremely important topic, we’ve both made our point, so I think it’s time we set this topic aside (at least for now), and move on to others. Thanks again for the discussion.<br /><br />In His Name,<br />RussellRussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-67574878560527032982011-12-12T13:24:34.655-08:002011-12-12T13:24:34.655-08:00Russell said:
You said: “Concerning my preaching ...Russell said:<br /><i>You said: “Concerning my preaching a ‘gospel of sin and death,’ let me remind you of the apostle Paul’s severe rebuke of the Galatians who were accepting the error of the Judaizers. That error was ADDING SOMETHING TO THE WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS, plain and simple. Paul said that the Galatians (who were called by grace) were, by adding works, DESERTING Him for a different gospel (Galatians 1:6). And then he attaches a fearsome anathema (Galatians 1:8-9). Galatians 1:6 doesn't say everything that you claim.” De Maria, what is it that I said that doesn’t line up with the context of Galatians 1:6? The Judaizers do indeed fall under the anathema of Paul in 1:8-9.</i><br /><br />You insinuate that St. Paul has told them not to keep the Commandments. But indeed, read the rest of Galations. Especially Gal 5, which I already posted above. <br /><br />Indeed, in another place, St. Paul says:<br />Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.<br /><br /><i>Their error was indeed adding to the cross, according to Galatians 2 and Acts 15:1 which led to the Council of Jerusalem. And the Galatians were indeed at the brink of “deserting” Jesus (NIV, NASV). The NKJV describes it as a “turning away,” while the NAB (a Catholic Bible) renders it “forsaking” Jesus. </i><br /><br />Hm? I originally said:<br /><b>Salvation is certainly a gift, but it isn't free. It is given only to those who obey Christ: Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; If you deny this, then you are preaching a gospel of sin and death which is incompatible with the Gospel of Christ.</b><br />Do you deny that one must obey God in order to be saved?<br /><br /><i>So, which part of my description is not right?</i><br /><br />The part where you insinuate that keeping the Commandments is adding to the work of Christ, as though it is somehow evil to do so. I remind you that St. Paul said:<br /><br />Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:<br /><br />And St. Peter likewise:<br /><br />1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-28007343599203719672011-12-12T13:18:14.806-08:002011-12-12T13:18:14.806-08:00Russell said:
I had said: “You keep changing your...Russell said:<br /><i>I had said: “You keep changing your position, because you just said earlier that only the sacraments can save…” And you challenged: “Quote me. Because I never said such a thing.” But on a post above, on November 16, 2011 4:56 PM, you wrote: “Hey De Maria, There seems to be some confusion. Or maybe I’m just dense. : ) Before we go any farther with this, I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. When you say that works don’t justify, are you lumping together all works EXCEPT sacraments in this category? Are you saying that only sacraments are purely God’s work and all other works are man’s? And that SACRAMENTS ARE THE ONLY WORKS THAT CAN SAVE / JUSTIFY? This is what I’m hearing but please correct me if I’m wrong, because it is not my intention to misrepresent you. [EMPHASIS ADDED] Yes. Keeping in mind that God works through His people. But only the Sacraments are purely His work.” Ok, De Maria, I had asked for clarification, and I clearly stated what my questions were at this point, one of them being “Are sacraments the only works that can save / justify?” And you answered “yes” to my questions. So, I don’t see why you are saying that you “never said such a thing.” </i><br /><br />Sorry for the confusion. Yes, the Sacraments save. Because God saves us through the Sacraments. But the word "only" is misplaced there. I shouldn't have agreed to that word. God is not bound by His Sacraments and God has said that He will save Jew or Gentile who keeps the Commandments. As the Church teaches:<br /><br /><b>CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 1257 (662 bytes ) preview document matches<br />Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments </b><br /><br /><i>Concerning your analogy of the rescuer telling the man to move closer to the ledge or he won’t be rescued… This is not a biblical view of salvation. Moving to the ledge is “working,” although a much “lesser” work than the rescuer’s. But it is still a work. He is partially earning his rescue. Scriptural salvation consists of surrendering to God and acknowledging your inability.</i><br /><br />In our view, surrendering is itself a work. And as you acknowledge after surrendering, works follow. If they don't, you aren't saved. Simple as that. And <br /><br />Scripture says:<br />Romans 2:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;<br /> 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God. <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-62780602251797866382011-12-12T13:15:12.870-08:002011-12-12T13:15:12.870-08:00Russell said:
You just said above that obedience i...Russell said:<br /><i>You just said above that obedience is a criteria for salvation, and then shortly after, you say “we don’t cause our salvation and I didn’t suggest that we did.” But, if obedience is indeed a criteria for salvation, then you ARE causing (at least in part) your salvation by your works and obedience, aren’t you?</i><br /><br />In part. We believe we have a part to play. God says:<br />Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;<br /><br />Do you deny that that verse says that only those who obey Christ will be saved? I'll assume your answer is no. If I am wrong, please correct me.<br /><br />If then, one must be obedient to Christ in order to be saved by Christ, do you interpret that as one saving oneself? Scripture says something similar:<br /><br />1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both <b>save thyself</b>, and them that hear thee.<br /><br /><i> In contrast, Protestants are saved by SURRENDERING to God (not working); a trusting and believing, an exercising of faith, apart from works (Romans 3:28) to be saved. </i><br /><br />Surrendering? Really? Is that a sort of magic word? Instead of obeying or submitting or believing, you surrender? We use that word also. Are you now going to use a different word because the Catholic Church teaches we must surrender to God?<br /><br /><b>CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2830 (658 bytes ) preview document matches<br />He is not inviting us to idleness, but wants to relieve us from nagging worry and preoccupation. Such is the filial surrender of the children of God: To those who seek the kingdom ... </b><br /><br />When we surrender to God, we begin to obey Him and do the works which He requires. So, what is the difference? How do you claim to exercise your faith without obeying Him? Or what does surrendering mean? Is it an attitude of "oh yeah, feeding the hungry is a good thing, but its not for me. I will simply believe God and that is all that is necessary." ?<br /> <br />Or do you exercise your faith by doing the works which God requires? James 1:27<br /><br /><i>It is only AFTER this that we can do works pleasing to God.</i><br />After surrendering? So, how is that different from Catholic doctrine? <br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-35162425994157131792011-12-12T13:12:40.473-08:002011-12-12T13:12:40.473-08:00Russell said...
Hello De Maria,
Hi Russell,
You ...<i>Russell said...<br />Hello De Maria,</i><br /><br />Hi Russell,<br /><br />You said:<br /><i>De Maria, it looks like we just keep repeating the same things, and I don’t want this dialogue to become unfruitful. So, I’ll just ask you to give some thought to the things I said. Thanks again.</i><br /><br />I do enjoy talking to you. You seem a person truly attempting to understand the other viewpoint. I endeavor to do you the same courtesy.<br /><br /> <i>Maybe we are talking past each other. I am certainly not the most articulate person, so that may be part of the problem. But although you intended to clarify, your last two posts are still confusing to me and you are still misrepresenting me (e.g., you said that I “admitted that one must keep the Commandments in order to be saved”… when I never said that).</i><br /><br />Hm? Ok. So are you saying the opposite? Are you saying that one who does not keep the Commandments can be saved? I remind you that St. Paul says:<br /><br /><b>Gal 5:<br />6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.<br /> …..<br /> 16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.<br /> 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.<br /> 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.<br /> 19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; ….</b><br /><br />Lets break these down:<br /><b>Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,</b> (6th Commandment)<br /><br /><b> 20Idolatry, witchcraft, </b>(First Commandment)<br /><br /><b>hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, </b>(5, 6, 7, 8 Commandment)<br /><br /><b> heresies, </b>(First Commandment)<br /><br /><b> 21Envyings, murders,</b> (Fifth Commandment)<br /><br /><b>drunkenness, revellings, and such like:</b> (7,8, 9 and 10 Commandments)<br /><br />Which of those sins which keeps one from being saved does not violate a commandment?<br /><br /><b>of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.</b><br /><br />So, St. Paul says that if we commit any of those sins, which are clear violations of the Commandments, we won't inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you believe this? Yes or No.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-77737077718400581032011-12-11T19:15:08.912-08:002011-12-11T19:15:08.912-08:00Hello De Maria,
Maybe we are talking past each ot...Hello De Maria,<br /><br />Maybe we are talking past each other. I am certainly not the most articulate person, so that may be part of the problem. But although you intended to clarify, your last two posts are still confusing to me and you are still misrepresenting me (e.g., you said that I “admitted that one must keep the Commandments in order to be saved”… when I never said that).<br /><br />You just said above that obedience is a criteria for salvation, and then shortly after, you say “we don’t cause our salvation and I didn’t suggest that we did.” But, if obedience is indeed a criteria for salvation, then you ARE causing (at least in part) your salvation by your works and obedience, aren’t you? In contrast, Protestants are saved by SURRENDERING to God (not working); a trusting and believing, an exercising of faith, apart from works (Romans 3:28) to be saved. It is only AFTER this that we can do works pleasing to God.<br /><br />I had said:<br /><br />“You keep changing your position, because you just said earlier that only the sacraments can save…”<br /><br />And you challenged:<br /><br />“Quote me. Because I never said such a thing.”<br /><br />But on a post above, on November 16, 2011 4:56 PM, you wrote:<br /><br />“Hey De Maria, There seems to be some confusion. Or maybe I’m just dense. : ) Before we go any farther with this, I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. When you say that works don’t justify, are you lumping together all works EXCEPT sacraments in this category? Are you saying that only sacraments are purely God’s work and all other works are man’s? And that SACRAMENTS ARE THE ONLY WORKS THAT CAN SAVE / JUSTIFY? This is what I’m hearing but please correct me if I’m wrong, because it is not my intention to misrepresent you. [EMPHASIS ADDED]<br /><br />Yes. Keeping in mind that God works through His people. But only the Sacraments are purely His work.”<br /><br />Ok, De Maria, I had asked for clarification, and I clearly stated what my questions were at this point, one of them being “Are sacraments the only works that can save / justify?” And you answered “yes” to my questions. So, I don’t see why you are saying that you “never said such a thing.” <br /><br />Concerning your analogy of the rescuer telling the man to move closer to the ledge or he won’t be rescued… This is not a biblical view of salvation. Moving to the ledge is “working,” although a much “lesser” work than the rescuer’s. But it is still a work. He is partially earning his rescue. Scriptural salvation consists of surrendering to God and acknowledging your inability.<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />“Concerning my preaching a ‘gospel of sin and death,’ let me remind you of the apostle Paul’s severe rebuke of the Galatians who were accepting the error of the Judaizers. That error was ADDING SOMETHING TO THE WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS, plain and simple. Paul said that the Galatians (who were called by grace) were, by adding works, DESERTING Him for a different gospel (Galatians 1:6). And then he attaches a fearsome anathema (Galatians 1:8-9).<br /><br />Galatians 1:6 doesn't say everything that you claim.”<br /><br />De Maria, what is it that I said that doesn’t line up with the context of Galatians 1:6? The Judaizers do indeed fall under the anathema of Paul in 1:8-9. Their error was indeed adding to the cross, according to Galatians 2 and Acts 15:1 which led to the Council of Jerusalem. And the Galatians were indeed at the brink of “deserting” Jesus (NIV, NASV). The NKJV describes it as a “turning away,” while the NAB (a Catholic Bible) renders it “forsaking” Jesus. So, which part of my description is not right?<br /><br />De Maria, it looks like we just keep repeating the same things, and I don’t want this dialogue to become unfruitful. So, I’ll just ask you to give some thought to the things I said. Thanks again.<br /><br />In His Name,<br />RussellRussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-81198555648717663082011-12-09T22:26:44.971-08:002011-12-09T22:26:44.971-08:00cont'd
Russell said...
and all other works d...cont'd<br /><br /><i>Russell said...</i><br /><i> and all other works do not save. Now, you’re saying that keeping the commandments does save a person.</i><br /><br />I didn't say that either. I said what St. Paul said, those who do the works of the Law will be saved. Those who keep the Commandments will be saved. <br /><br />Its not that hard to understand Russell. For example, say that a man is stuck on a mountain. A rescuer comes and says, "if you move to that ledge I will pull you up." Moving to that ledge does not save him. But if he doesn't move to that ledge, he won't be saved.<br /><br />In the same way, God says, "if you keep the Commandments, I will save you." That means that you must keep the Commandments, God will save you. But if you don't, you won't be saved.<br /><br />Does that make sense? <br /><br /><i>Concerning my preaching a “gospel of sin and death,” let me remind you of the apostle Paul’s severe rebuke of the Galatians who were accepting the error of the Judaizers. That error was ADDING SOMETHING TO THE WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS, plain and simple. Paul said that the Galatians (who were called by grace) were, by adding works, DESERTING Him for a different gospel (Galatians 1:6). And then he attaches a fearsome anathema (Galatians 1:8-9).</i><br /><br />Galatians 1:6 doesn't say everything that you claim. It simply says:<br /><br />6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:<br /><br />And above, you admitted that one must keep the Commandments in order to be saved. Therefore, if you claim that the Commandments are not important for our salvation, it is you who are teaching a different Gospel and the anathemas of Gal 1:8-9 apply to you.<br /><br /><i>Therefore, it is the CATHOLIC gospel (of faith plus works) that is a gospel of sin and death.</i><br /><br />On the contrary, Scripture says:<br />James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?<br /><br />It those who deny the efficacy of works who deny Christ's gospel.<br /><br /><i> The Catholic gospel tells us that the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, just wasn’t good enough to pay the penalty for sin. I don’t want any part of that gospel.</i><br /><br />Scripture says:<br />Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:<br /><br />And that is precisely the message of the Catholic Church. We must suffer in the flesh to fill up that which is lacking in the Body of Christ. You deny it, pretending that Jesus Christ did not leave you a part to play in your salvation. But Scripture also says:<br /><br />Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.<br />And I don't want any part in your gospel which looks upon Christ and says that you are too good to also suffer as He did. Christ didn't suffer so that you could walk this earth. He died so that you could go to heaven. Therefore He left you an example to follow:<br /><br />1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:<br /><br />Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-86680253891332364212011-12-09T22:23:10.304-08:002011-12-09T22:23:10.304-08:00Russell said...
Hello De Maria, I just want to co...<i>Russell said...<br />Hello De Maria, I just want to comment on something you said above: “Salvation is certainly a gift, but it isn't free. It is given only to those who obey Christ: Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; If you deny this, then you are preaching a gospel of sin and death which is incompatible with the Gospel of Christ.” I certainly don’t deny Hebrews 5:9, but the point of this verse is that He is the Source of eternal salvation. And those who accept Him (and His work on the cross) will indeed also obey Him because of this. It is not PRESCRIBING how one is to be saved here.</i><br /><br />It is a criteria for salvation. Because obedience is a product of faith. Therefore, only those who obey Christ will be saved. Do you deny it? Do you believe that those who disobey Christ will be saved? <br /><br /><i>I am not denying that we should keep the commandments. True believers will keep them because of their love for God. But I am emphatically denying that we can keep them TO CAUSE OUR SALVATION, as you are suggesting here.</i><br /><br />We don't cause our salvation and I didn't suggest that we did. <br /><br /><i>You keep changing your position, because you just said earlier that only the sacraments can save</i><br /><br />Quote me. Because I never said such a thing. Here's what I've said.<br /><br />First of all, YOU and the Jews and all non-Catholics will only be saved to the extent that you keep the Commandments. What I mean there, is that if you intend to keep the Commandments because of your love for God, you will not keep them perfectly, but you will be saved, as by fire. See 1 Cor 3:10-15. That means you will wait until Judgement Day before you enter heaven, if you are saved.<br /><br />But, if you deny that keeping the Commandments is necessary for your salvation, that is an indicator that you don't love God and you will not be saved, whether you are Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Protestant or anyone else.<br /><br />However, Catholics (and the Orthodox) who love God and keep the Commandments are also privileged to receive the Sacraments, by which GOD SAVES US RIGHT HERE AND NOW. Those who receive the Sacraments in faith are:<br /><br />Hebrews 12:22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.<br /><br />I hope that is more clearly set out for you.<br /><br />cont'dDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-11266722343473808792011-12-05T20:21:51.222-08:002011-12-05T20:21:51.222-08:00Hello De Maria,
I just want to comment on somethi...Hello De Maria,<br /><br />I just want to comment on something you said above:<br /><br />“Salvation is certainly a gift, but it isn't free. It is given only to those who obey Christ:<br /><br />Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;<br /><br />If you deny this, then you are preaching a gospel of sin and death which is incompatible with the Gospel of Christ.”<br /><br />I certainly don’t deny Hebrews 5:9, but the point of this verse is that He is the Source of eternal salvation. And those who accept Him (and His work on the cross) will indeed also obey Him because of this. It is not PRESCRIBING how one is to be saved here.<br /><br />I am not denying that we should keep the commandments. <br />True believers will keep them because of their love for God. But I am emphatically denying that we can keep them TO CAUSE OUR SALVATION, as you are suggesting here. You keep changing your position, because you just said earlier that only the sacraments can save and all other works do not save. Now, you’re saying that keeping the commandments does save a person.<br /><br />Concerning my preaching a “gospel of sin and death,” let me remind you of the apostle Paul’s severe rebuke of the Galatians who were accepting the error of the Judaizers. That error was ADDING SOMETHING TO THE WORK OF JESUS ON THE CROSS, plain and simple. Paul said that the Galatians (who were called by grace) were, by adding works, DESERTING Him for a different gospel (Galatians 1:6). And then he attaches a fearsome anathema (Galatians 1:8-9).<br /><br />Therefore, it is the CATHOLIC gospel (of faith plus works) that is a gospel of sin and death. The Catholic gospel tells us that the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, just wasn’t good enough to pay the penalty for sin. I don’t want any part of that gospel.<br /><br />In His Name,<br />RussellRussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-90416337924851622222011-12-04T17:13:47.598-08:002011-12-04T17:13:47.598-08:00Hi De Maria,
Please forgive me for unintentionall...Hi De Maria,<br /><br />Please forgive me for unintentionally putting my last response (on “Pillar and Ground”) here on the wrong blog. I meant to put it on my own blog after your comments here:<br /><br />http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/09/pillar-and-foundation.html#comment-form<br /><br />I also want to apologize to Nick for posting these comments on his “faith alone” article, when the topic of our (De Maria and I) discussion was something else. Sorry Nick. If it’s ok with you, De Maria, I’ll copy and paste my comment above here, along with your last two, onto the link mentioned right above to stay on track. Thanks.<br /><br />RussellRussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-28570032481940256502011-11-25T19:17:04.032-08:002011-11-25T19:17:04.032-08:00Ok, what happened? I must have hit the wrong butt...Ok, what happened? I must have hit the wrong button. That was supposed to preview first, but didn't. This should be easier to read. Sorry. Let me try again:<br /><br /><i>Russell said...<br />Hi De Maria, Once again, there is nothing in 1 Timothy 3 that demands (or even suggests) infallibility…..</i><br /><br />I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can only repeat my contention that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle to refer to the Church as the Pillar of Truth, thus confirming the infallibility of the Church which Christ built. <br /><br /><i>In this context, being called the pillar and ground of the truth is in no way a “confirmation” of infallibility, as you suggested. Focusing on a word or phrase and running with it while ignoring context, is not good exegesis. It is assumption and speculation.</i><br /><br />Our context is simply different than yours Russell. We use the context provided by 2000 years of Catholic Tradition from which the New Testament was written. We also use the context of the rest of Scripture which says of the Church:<br /><br />Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, <br /><br /><i>Here is an analogy of how Catholics interpret this passage: Little Billy’s father tells Billy in front of his friends, “Now son, you must never, ever tell a lie.” And Billy’s friends grossly exaggerate his father’s words into “Billy has never, ever told a lie, and he could not ever possibly tell one.” In the same way, Catholics distort Paul’s words. If Protestants would ever try to use such logic in interpretation, Catholics would (rightly) be quick to complain.</i><br /><br />That is a poor example. Here's how Protestants exegete Scripture. Lets say that Billy's father is from India and wears the traditional sherwani garb which goes down to his ankles. Little Billy's American friends say, "he must be a cross dresser, he dresses like a woman." Because they are ignorant of the traditions of the elderly Indian man.<br /><br />In the same way, since Protestants have done away with Christian Traditions, they have no point of reference with the ancient lessons contained in the Scripture. They judge everything according to their own culture and wind up with completely wrong understanding of the Word of God.<br /><br /><i>Just as these words of Billy’s father were meant to impart responsibility on Billy’s part (and nothing more), but got distorted into a “special grace” for Billy - likewise, Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 3:15 were meant to impart a grave responsibility to the church, but are distorted by Catholics into “infallibility.”</i><br /><br />On the contrary, from the context of Tradition and the rest of the New Testament, it is obvious that the Reformers have erred by rejecting the Traditions passed down by the Apostles and therefore misunderstanding what is meant by the "Pillar of Truth" in Timothy 3:15.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-36447736156818688732011-11-25T19:13:34.109-08:002011-11-25T19:13:34.109-08:00Russell said...
Hi De Maria, Once again, there is...<i>Russell said...<br />Hi De Maria, Once again, there is nothing in 1 Timothy 3 that demands (or even suggests) infallibility…..</i><br /><br />I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I can only repeat my contention that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle to refer to the Church as the Pillar of Truth, thus confirming the infallibility of the Church which Christ built. <i>In this context, being called the pillar and ground of the truth is in no way a “confirmation” of infallibility, as you suggested. Focusing on a word or phrase and running with it while ignoring context, is not good exegesis. It is assumption and speculation.</i><br /><br />Our context is simply different than yours Russell. We use the context provided by 2000 years of Catholic Tradition from which the New Testament was written. We also use the context of the rest of Scripture which says of the Church:<br />Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, <i>Here is an analogy of how Catholics interpret this passage: Little Billy’s father tells Billy in front of his friends, “Now son, you must never, ever tell a lie.” And Billy’s friends grossly exaggerate his father’s words into “Billy has never, ever told a lie, and he could not ever possibly tell one.” In the same way, Catholics distort Paul’s words. If Protestants would ever try to use such logic in interpretation, Catholics would (rightly) be quick to complain.</i><br />That is a poor example. Here's how Protestants exegete Scripture. Lets say that Billy's father is from India and wears the traditional sherwani garb which goes down to his ankles. Little Billy's American friends say, "he must be a cross dresser, he dresses like a woman." Because they are ignorant of the traditions of the elderly Indian man.<br />In the same way, since Protestants have done away with Christian Traditions, they have no point of reference with the ancient lessons contained in the Scripture. They judge everything according to their own culture and wind up with completely wrong understanding of the Word of God.<br /><i>Just as these words of Billy’s father were meant to impart responsibility on Billy’s part (and nothing more), but got distorted into a “special grace” for Billy - likewise, Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 3:15 were meant to impart a grave responsibility to the church, but are distorted by Catholics into “infallibility.”</i><br />On the contrary, from the context of Tradition and the rest of the New Testament, it is obvious that the Reformers have erred by rejecting the Traditions passed down by the Apostles and therefore misunderstanding what is meant by the "Pillar of Truth" in Timothy 3:15.<br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-38511741224408396712011-11-25T18:36:48.746-08:002011-11-25T18:36:48.746-08:00Hi De Maria,
Once again, there is nothing in 1 Ti...Hi De Maria,<br /><br />Once again, there is nothing in 1 Timothy 3 that demands (or even suggests) infallibility. As I said before, Paul’s emphasis is on the RESPONSIBILITY / OBLIGATION of the church to uphold the truth, not on some special power or infallibility.<br /><br />In this context, being called the pillar and ground of the truth is in no way a “confirmation” of infallibility, as you suggested. Focusing on a word or phrase and running with it while ignoring context, is not good exegesis. It is assumption and speculation.<br /><br />Here is an analogy of how Catholics interpret this passage: Little Billy’s father tells Billy in front of his friends, “Now son, you must never, ever tell a lie.” And Billy’s friends grossly exaggerate his father’s words into “Billy has never, ever told a lie, and he could not ever possibly tell one.” In the same way, Catholics distort Paul’s words. If Protestants would ever try to use such logic in interpretation, Catholics would (rightly) be quick to complain.<br /><br />Just as these words of Billy’s father were meant to impart responsibility on Billy’s part (and nothing more), but got distorted into a “special grace” for Billy - likewise, Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 3:15 were meant to impart a grave responsibility to the church, but are distorted by Catholics into “infallibility.”Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-76073360240813489782011-11-22T15:23:06.142-08:002011-11-22T15:23:06.142-08:00CONT'D
And the other example you used indicat...CONT'D<br /><br /><i>And the other example you used indicates the <br />same thing: “Or take this example. I work for a company that gives us gifts FOR YEARS OF SERVICE, WORKING SAFELY AND PRODUCTIVITY. These are not part of our contract. The Company gives them to us freely and in fact, has taken away many of the gifts which It formerly gave. We used to get "safety days", days off FOR WORKING SAFELY THE WHOLE YEAR. We no longer get those. But we have no recourse. Because they are not "earned". They are freely given by the company to those whom It decides DESERVES THEM according to their own criteria.” (Again, emphasis mine) Clearly, these are for services rendered. These are actually not “unearned gifts,” but are simply extras given to encourage better performance. You still did something to deserve these extras.<br /><br /> And you ended this part with: “In the same way, God gives eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.” Eternal life is always depicted as a gift in Scripture. It is received by having a correct state of the heart, humbly surrendering to God and realizing our spiritually bankrupt state, not by participating in prescribed external rituals and formulas. </i><br /><br />Please see my explanation of gift above.<br /><br />Apparently you are denying that one must keep the Commandments in order to be saved, is that correct?<br /><br />1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.<br /><br />Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.<br /><br />It doesn't matter how you spin it, God won't justify or save those who simply claim to have faith. Your faith must be proven by works. Scripture is clear:<br /><br />Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.<br /><br />Those who do not keep the Commandments, will not enter life:<br /><br />15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.<br /><br /><i>It has always been a free gift (John 4:10; Romans 5:15-18), and not something that is deserved. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)</i><br /><br />Salvation is certainly a gift, but it isn't free. It is given only to those who obey Christ:<br /><br />Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;<br /><br />If you deny this, then you are preaching a gospel of sin and death which is incompatible with the Gospel of Christ.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-67201164261925508282011-11-22T15:21:23.950-08:002011-11-22T15:21:23.950-08:00Russell said...
Hello De Maria,
Hi Russell,
Ok...<i>Russell said...<br />Hello De Maria,</i><br /><br />Hi Russell,<br /><br /><i>Ok, so now I think that I’m understanding you… You’re clearly saying that sacraments are the only good works that save / justify. But this is unbiblical.</i><br /><br />According to you. But Catholics and Protestants understand Scripture differently. In my opinion, that is because Protestants have rejected the Traditions which are the basis of the New Testament.<br /><br />Let me give you an example:<br /><br />Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;<br /><br />Because you have rejected the Traditions, in this case, the Sacraments, you don't realize that this verse is a direct reference to the Sacraments, especially Baptism, within which we are washed and renewed by God. <br /><br /><i> See my article on sacraments here: http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2011/01/sacraments-gods-grace-for-sale.html</i><br /><br />That reminds me. Didn't I review one of your other articles on your blog? Did you ever post my response? I also promised to review two others, about the Eucharist, but I can't remember whether I did that or not? I guess I can look them up when I get a chance.<br /><br /><i>But God has ordained ONLY ONE work to justify / save mankind: Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross. And He has ordained ONLY ONE “conduit” to access this gift: faith / believing / trusting in that work alone. Sacraments like baptism or the Eucharist / Communion / breaking bread don’t access this gift. They don’t save or justify - they are simply designed to point to Calvary, which does save us.</i><br /><br />You are wrong. Scripture clearly tells us:<br />John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.<br /><br />Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; ...<br /><br />The Sacraments are the instruments by which the Grace of God is applied to those who believe. Those who do not believe will either refuse them or condemn themselves by sacrilegiously misusing the Grace which the Son of God died on the Cross to provide for us:<br /><br />1 Corinthians 11:<br /> 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.<br /><br />Mark 16:16<br />…but he that believeth not shall be damned.<br /><br /><i>Giving examples of how one is justified in real life, you said: “Its not such a terribly difficult concept to understand. I'll give you an example from real life. Say my son is going to graduate and I promise to give him a new car WHEN HE DOES SO. The car is a free will gift. He doesn't earn it. He does the same amount of work whether he graduates or not. But I voluntarily obligated myself to give him the car IF HE GRADUATES.” (Emphasis mine) De Maria, the phrases you use indicate that it is NOT a “gift” after all. It is still conditional and based on his performance… “when he does so,” and “if he graduates.”</i><br /><br />It remains a gift. <br /><br />It surprises me that I have not met even one Protestant who seems to be aware that gifts are frequently given with strings attached. And gifts are revoked if those conditions are not met. Go to any charity organization and ask them what type of gift you may give and they will give you an entire menu of possitilities. FREQUENTLY, these gifts are given based upon performance and the gift of eternal life is precisely that type of gift. We must perform or we will not receive the gift of eternal life.<br /><br />In the example, I am under no obligation to give anything until I obligate myself. In the same way, God is not obligated to give us eternal life, no matter if we keep the Ten Commandments or not. But He obligated Himself.<br /><br />Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:<br /><br /><br />CONT'DDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-18115346495439387822011-11-21T09:14:35.643-08:002011-11-21T09:14:35.643-08:00Hello De Maria,
Ok, so now I think that I’m under...Hello De Maria,<br /><br />Ok, so now I think that I’m understanding you… <br /><br />You’re clearly saying that sacraments are the only good works that save / justify. But this is unbiblical. See my article on sacraments here:<br /><br />http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2011/01/sacraments-gods-grace-for-sale.html<br /><br />But God has ordained ONLY ONE work to justify / save mankind: Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross. And He has ordained ONLY ONE “conduit” to access this gift: faith / believing / trusting in that work alone. Sacraments like baptism or the Eucharist / Communion / breaking bread don’t access this gift. They don’t save or justify - they are simply designed to point to Calvary, which does save us.<br /><br />Giving examples of how one is justified in real life, you said:<br /><br />“Its not such a terribly difficult concept to understand. I'll give you an example from real life. Say my son is going to graduate and I promise to give him a new car WHEN HE DOES SO. The car is a free will gift. He doesn't earn it. He does the same amount of work whether he graduates or not. But I voluntarily obligated myself to give him the car IF HE GRADUATES.” (Emphasis mine)<br /><br />De Maria, the phrases you use indicate that it is NOT a “gift” after all. It is still conditional and based on his performance… “when he does so,” and “if he graduates.”<br /><br />And the other example you used indicates the same thing:<br /><br />“Or take this example. I work for a company that gives us gifts FOR YEARS OF SERVICE, WORKING SAFELY AND PRODUCTIVITY. These are not part of our contract. The Company gives them to us freely and in fact, has taken away many of the gifts which It formerly gave. We used to get "safety days", days off FOR WORKING SAFELY THE WHOLE YEAR. We no longer get those. But we have no recourse. Because they are not "earned". They are freely given by the company to those whom It decides DESERVES THEM according to their own criteria.” (Again, emphasis mine)<br /><br />Clearly, these are for services rendered. These are actually not “unearned gifts,” but are simply extras given to encourage better performance. You still did something to deserve these extras.<br /><br />And you ended this part with:<br /><br />“In the same way, God gives eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.” <br /><br />Eternal life is always depicted as a gift in Scripture. It is received by having a correct state of the heart, humbly surrendering to God and realizing our spiritually bankrupt state, not by participating in prescribed external rituals and formulas. <br /><br />It has always been a free gift (John 4:10; Romans 5:15-18), and not something that is deserved.<br /><br />“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-8450764387129993212011-11-16T16:56:30.130-08:002011-11-16T16:56:30.130-08:00Russell said...
Hey De Maria, There seems to be s...<i>Russell said...<br />Hey De Maria, There seems to be some confusion. Or maybe I’m just dense. : ) Before we go any farther with this, I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. When you say that works don’t justify, are you lumping together all works EXCEPT sacraments in this category? Are you saying that only sacraments are purely God’s work and all other works are man’s? And that sacraments are the only works that can save / justify? This is what I’m hearing but please correct me if I’m wrong, because it is not my intention to misrepresent you.</i><br /><br />Yes. Keeping in mind that God works through His people. But only the Sacraments are purely His work.<br /><br />740 <b>These "mighty works of God," offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)</b><br /><br />798 <b>The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body." He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity: by God's Word "which is able to build you up"; by Baptism, through which he forms Christ's Body; by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ's members;.... </b><br /><br />1074 "The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed;.... <b>for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works </b>....<br /><br />TRENT 6, CHAPTER VII IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES<br />…..<br />The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one's disposition and cooperation…..<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-6208993655523889772011-11-15T20:12:03.830-08:002011-11-15T20:12:03.830-08:00Hey De Maria,
There seems to be some confusion. ...Hey De Maria,<br /><br />There seems to be some confusion. Or maybe I’m just dense. : ) Before we go any farther with this, I just want to make sure I understand what you are saying. When you say that works don’t justify, are you lumping together all works EXCEPT sacraments in this category? Are you saying that only sacraments are purely God’s work and all other works are man’s? And that sacraments are the only works that can save / justify? This is what I’m hearing but please correct me if I’m wrong, because it is not my intention to misrepresent you.<br /><br />ThanksRussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-26267623961216729932011-11-14T09:14:30.939-08:002011-11-14T09:14:30.939-08:00Russell continues:
You said: “Nothing which we d...Russell continues:<br /> <i>You said: “Nothing which we do, not even faith or good works, can justify us.” What about baptism? Isn’t this the “instrumental cause” of justification according to Trent?</i><br /><br />God does that. We are like the blind man who yelled, "Son of David, have mercy!" We don't heal our souls. Christ does. <i>And immediately after that you said: “But God won’t justify anyone who has not demonstrated his faith in good works.” But aren’t you saying here that good works DO precede justification (in contradiction to your quote of Trent above), </i><br /><br />??? Which quote is that? This one?<br /><b>CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD …. and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.</b><br /><br />Faith and good works must precede justification. But our faith and works are as dirty rags. It is by God's mercy we are saved.<br /><br /><i>and that God only justifies AFTER one has demonstrated his faith by good works? </i><br /><br />Romans 2:13 <i>I had said that you keep saying that man is justified by “faith plus works,” and you responded: “There are three instances of that terminology on this page. They are all traced back to you. I keep saying we are justified by God, if we have perfected our faith in works of love.” Are you denying that this is “faith plus works”? This is just more semantics.</i><br /><br />Didn't I also explain that it is a manner of speaking. Look at my response to your part 1; I said:<br /><i><b>As most people use the term "saved by faith" or "saved by faith and works", they are only true in a manner of speaking. Only God saves. And God only saves those who keep His Commandments.</b></i> <br /><br /><i>Concerning my question to you about Abraham’s circumcision, you pointed out that Catholics believe that justification is a “process,” and not just a one-time event. De Maria, process or not, you still did not answer the question: Abraham’s circumcision did NOT justify him (Romans 4:9-12), although it was a God-ordained work of obedience, done in faith. Why not?</i><br /><br />Because works don't justify. God does. Have you not read in Scripture:<br />Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.<br /><br />By the same token, no flesh shall be justified who does not do the works of the Law (Romans 2:13).<br />Why is that so hard to understand?<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />De MariaDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-92186011471627737242011-11-14T09:13:42.390-08:002011-11-14T09:13:42.390-08:00Russell said...
Hi De Maria,
Hi Russell,
Again...<i>Russell said...<br />Hi De Maria,</i><br /><br />Hi Russell,<br /><br /> <i>Again, when I brought up the fact that the Catholic Church teaches that good works are the cause (at least partly) of justification / salvation, this time you said: “Baptism is the work of God.” And “Justification is God’s work. Not ours.” Then I guess that we can blame God if any good works (including baptism) are neglected or never get done, since it is all “God’s work” anyway, right? Of course not.</i><br /><br />Russell, you are putting words in my mouth. Please respond to what I actually said. Not your straw men.<br /><br />First, I never said that we can blame God for anything. The fact is, if anyone is negligent in any aspect of our faith life, it is due to our "free will". God does not force us to submit to His Works. If a man says, "No, I shall not be baptized." He has made a conscious decision not to do so. <br /><br /><i><b>Mea Culpa!</b></i> <br /><br /><i>De Maria, you are just playing word games. You won’t admit the obvious: that the Catholic Church sees good works as a cause of justification / salvation, as proven by the quotes I gave you last in my last post. </i><br /><br />Are you speaking of these?<br /><i>“…the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism…” <br /><br /> Baptism is certainly a work and Trent calls it a CAUSE of justification. The Catholic Catechism also reflects this same idea: “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation…” (CCC #1129)<br /><br /> Vatican II agrees: “From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners… indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people.” (Second Vatican Council, Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences) So, you can’t deny that the Catholic Church teaches salvation (at least partially) by works.</i><br /><br />I thought I addressed them? If my answers were not satisfactory, please be more specific.<br /><br /><i>(By the way, this is what I referred to earlier when I said you objected to my “initial comment.”) You asked me to show you where this was stated, and I did. But you are now backpedaling and actually exposing the contradiction in Catholic teaching, where on the one hand, the Council of Trent is claiming that works are a cause of justification, yet in another section, it claims that justification is “gratuitous.” But justification cannot be both “gratuitous” (purely a gift) AND caused by works at the same time.</i><br /><br />Its not such a terribly difficult concept to understand. I'll give you an example from real life. Say my son is going to graduate and I promise to give him a new car when he does so. The car is a free will gift. He doesn't earn it. He does the same amount of work whether he graduates or not. But I voluntarily obligated myself to give him the car if he graduates.<br /><br />Or take this example. I work for a company that gives us gifts for years of service, working safely and productivity. These are not part of our contract. The Company gives them to us freely and in fact, has taken away many of the gifts which It formerly gave. We used to get "safety days", days off for working safely the whole year. We no longer get those. But we have no recourse. Because they are not "earned". They are freely given by the company to those whom It decides deserves them according to their own criteria.<br /><br />In the same way, God gives eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.<br /><br />CONT'DDe Mariahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00997195004868253348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-22957834405345778242011-11-13T20:00:47.418-08:002011-11-13T20:00:47.418-08:00Hi De Maria,
Again, when I brought up the fact th...Hi De Maria,<br /><br />Again, when I brought up the fact that the Catholic Church teaches that good works are the cause (at least partly) of justification / salvation, this time you said:<br /><br />“Baptism is the work of God.”<br /><br />And<br /><br />“Justification is God’s work. Not ours.”<br /><br />Then I guess that we can blame God if any good works (including baptism) are neglected or never get done, since it is all “God’s work” anyway, right? Of course not.<br /><br />De Maria, you are just playing word games. You won’t admit the obvious: that the Catholic Church sees good works as a cause of justification / salvation, as proven by the quotes I gave you last in my last post. (By the way, this is what I referred to earlier when I said you objected to my “initial comment.”) You asked me to show you where this was stated, and I did. But you are now backpedaling and actually exposing the contradiction in Catholic teaching, where on the one hand, the Council of Trent is claiming that works are a cause of justification, yet in another section, it claims that justification is “gratuitous.” But justification cannot be both “gratuitous” (purely a gift) AND caused by works at the same time.<br /><br />You said:<br /><br />“Nothing which we do, not even faith or good works, can justify us.”<br /><br />What about baptism? Isn’t this the “instrumental cause” of justification according to Trent?<br /><br />And immediately after that you said:<br /><br />“But God won’t justify anyone who has not demonstrated his faith in good works.”<br /><br />But aren’t you saying here that good works DO precede justification (in contradiction to your quote of Trent above), and that God only justifies AFTER one has demonstrated his faith by good works? <br /><br />I had said that you keep saying that man is justified by “faith plus works,” and you responded:<br /><br />“There are three instances of that terminology on this page. They are all traced back to you. I keep saying we are justified by God, if we have perfected our faith in works of love.”<br /><br />Are you denying that this is “faith plus works”? This is just more semantics.<br /><br />Concerning my question to you about Abraham’s circumcision, you pointed out that Catholics believe that justification is a “process,” and not just a one-time event.<br /><br />De Maria, process or not, you still did not answer the question: Abraham’s circumcision did NOT justify him (Romans 4:9-12), although it was a God-ordained work of obedience, done in faith. Why not?Russellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17823479491839694646noreply@blogger.com