tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post4911601670071865799..comments2024-03-15T09:07:15.798-07:00Comments on NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: 7 Reasons to reject Sabbatarianism (Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping)Nickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-44269715128302864492022-09-30T10:27:58.457-07:002022-09-30T10:27:58.457-07:00NICKS REMARKS TO THE ABOVE ARTICLE QUOTED: NOTICE ...NICKS REMARKS TO THE ABOVE ARTICLE QUOTED: NOTICE THAT THE WHOLE RANGE OF SIX 'FESTIVALS' OF LEVITICUS 23 ARE SEEN AS "CEREMONIAL SABBATHS" IN THIS ADVENTIST ENCYCLOPEDIA ARTICLE. IN THIS CASE, THE ARTICLE WOULD SUGGEST THAT "Passover/Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabenacles" ARE ALSO "CEREMONIAL SABBATHS". IF THIS IS THE CASE, THEN WHY DOES PAUL DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE SIX CEREMONICAL SABBATHS BEING ABOLISHED WITH ALSO FEASTS BEING ABOLISHED? IT WOULD SEEM PAUL DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING IN THE "FEAST" CATEGORY NOW THAT THEY HAVE ALL BEEN RELEGATED TO THE "SABBATH" CATEGORY. <br /><br />ALSO, I DO NOT SEE THE TRUMPETS AS REFERRED TO DIRECTLY AS EITHER A FEAST OR A SABBATH, SO ARE WE TO CONCLUDE WE ARE TO STILL KEEP TRUMPETS? THE ARTICLE ABOVE SAYS ONLY THE DAY OF ATONEMENT IS EXPLICITLY LABELED A SABBATH, MEANING ONLY ***ONE*** CEREMONIAL SABBATH ON THE JEWISH CALENDAR. SO DID PAUL SUGGEST BY PLURAL "SABBATHS" ONLY THE DAY OF ATONEMENT WAS ABOLISHED?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-78000244405145544892022-09-30T10:27:35.036-07:002022-09-30T10:27:35.036-07:00I also found an article on the Adventist.Org websi...I also found an article on the Adventist.Org website under the Adventist Encyclopedia on this "Ceremonial Sabbaths" topic:<br /><br />https://encyclopedia.adventist.org/article?id=DFQ8 <br /><br />Here are some key quotes: <br /><br />//Annual (ceremonial) Sabbaths are special days of restricted work in connection with the sequence of the annual appointed seasons (<b>loosely called “festivals”</b>), in contrast with the seventh-day Sabbath of the recurring weekly cycle. Over time different terms, such as cultic, ritual, feast, festal/festival, etc., have been used as descriptive words to refer to these yearly ceremonial sabbaths. Each of these annual times fell on specifically identified days within the first, third and seventh lunar months of the yearly religious calendar of ancient Israel. <b>Of these, only the Day of Atonement is directly labelled a “sabbath” in the original Hebrew language (e.g., Lev 23:32)</b>, as it is the exclusive annual ceremonial day on which all work was prohibited (v. 28). The other six sacred occasions were days when only “servile” or “regular” or “laborious” or “occupational” work was prohibited (vv. 7, 8, 21, etc.), thus permitting the cooking of food (e.g., Exod 12:16). While all male Israelites were required to attend the holy convocations held in Jerusalem for the annual pilgrimage festivals (Exod 23:14-17; Deut 16:16; cf. Lev 23), such attendance on the Day of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement was not obligatory. Despite these differences, <b>all seven of these sacred occasions have traditionally been referred to as the “annual ceremonial sabbaths,”</b> in contrast with the weekly “Sabbaths of the Lord” (Lev 23:38).<br /><br />While many may be aware that Scripture differentiates between the seventh-day Sabbath (as in Exod 20:8-11), and <b>the ceremonial sabbaths (as found within Lev 23:4-37) </b> , others may inadvertently place both the weekly Sabbath and the annual sabbaths into the same category. <br /><br />Furthermore, in responding to the argument that Colossians 2:14 and 16 indicate that the Sabbath was abolished at the crucifixion, he [Preble] used texts from Leviticus 23 as well as Hosea 2:11 to show that it was the ceremonial sabbaths that were “nailed to the cross,”3 and not the Sabbath enshrined in the Ten Commandments.<br /><br />More recently, the comprehensive volume, Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology, has confirmed <b>the contrast between the weekly Sabbath (of Exod 20:8-11) which points back to the Creation, and the annual holy days (of Lev 23:4-37).14 </b> Though some Adventist academics have proposed other views, 15 the Handbook affirms that Paul’s reference to “sabbaths” in Colossians 2:16, deals with the annual sabbaths of the Jewish ceremonial system.16 <br /><br />In response to challenges against the historic position regarding the “sabbaths” of Colossians 2:16, a volume produced by the Biblical Research Institute Committee of the Adventist Church has concluded that “the compelling weight of linguistic, intertextual, and contextual evidence demonstrates that the sabbaths of Colossians 2:16, 17 refer to the ceremonial sabbaths of the ancient Israelite religious system.”23 This conclusion, that essentially echoes the original understanding of Adventist pioneers, has been corroborated by extensive doctoral research, which reveals contextual, etymological, intertextual, lexical, linguistic, semantic, structural, syntactical and typological data that the “sabbaths” in Colossians 2 identifies the annual ceremonial sabbaths, and does not refer to the weekly Sabbath.//Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-61263989361187311462022-09-30T09:50:44.019-07:002022-09-30T09:50:44.019-07:00Hi Jesse,
I have more recent SDA articles I'...Hi Jesse, <br /><br />I have more recent SDA articles I've posted since this one, so it would be good to check those out. <br /><br />I would first start by saying that for the SDA to say "it is *impossible* that Paul meant weekly sabbath" is too strong of a claim, because weekly sabbath is a normal/understandable interpretation. The Greek word sabbatwn is used for Saturday sabbath, as I showed above. <br /><br />As for the term "feast" (heorte), that term is found in Leviticus 23:2-3, which says: <br /><br />//2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the *feasts* [heorte] of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my *feasts* [heorte]. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.//<br /><br />Moses puts the Sabbath as a "feast" here, so by the SDA logic, Paul rules out the Seventh Day by using the term heorte, or at least makes the SDA argument questionable.<br /><br />Within this list of "feasts" of Leviticus 23, it seems that Moses lists off the big ones: Seventh Day (23:2-3); Passover (23:4-8); First fruits (9-14); Weeks (15-22); Trumpets (23-25); Day of Atonement (26-32); Booths (33-43). The fact those are listed in here would be good reason to think they are feasts, especially since after mentioning DoA and Trumpets, Moses goes on to list the feast of Booths, so it would be strange for Moses to mix non-feasts in a chapter dedicated to feasts. And the last verse of the chapter says "And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD." So it is perfectly reasonable to think DoA and Trumpets were feasts, and that terms are more flexible than what the SDA will allow since the Seventh Day is the first feast mentioned in the chapter. These feasts are referred to as "holy convocations" of gathering of the nation, which all the feasts involve a gathering of the nation. <br /><br />I'm not sure why the SDA would suggest the Day of Atonement was not a shadow of the Cross or that it was not against us, when clearly the DoA was about the bad behavior of the nation needing cleansing from sin, which no other feast emphasized that much. <br /><br />When Paul says "let nobody judge you," this can only mean the Jews judging the Gentiles for not living like Jews. As I noted in my more recent Seventh Day Adventist articles, the Saturday Sabbath has key details given in the Bible as to why God gave it to the Israelites. These details are completely missed by the SDAs who only see Saturday Sabbath as a Genesis 1-2 thing, not something special to the Israelites. God wanted the Israelites to keep Saturday, and isn't really concerned about the Gentiles keeping it.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-57537132078766193192022-09-27T19:06:33.100-07:002022-09-27T19:06:33.100-07:00In regards to Colossians 2:14-17 what would your a...In regards to Colossians 2:14-17 what would your answer be to a SDA that says: "Its impossible that Paul meant the weekly Sabbath. If Paul were meaning the weekly Sabbath, then he would have failed to cover the Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement. Then his audience would have been thinking that we should still keep those. ....When Paul said "festival", he uses the Greek word "heorte", which is a Greek word that covers only the 3 annual pilgrimage feasts of Passover/Unleavened Bread, Pentecost, and Tabenacles. ....This Greek word 'heorte" was never used to cover the Trumpets and Day of Atonement, which according to Leviticus 23:24,32, were called 'a sabbath'. ....Paul is using the same chiasm of Hosea 2:11, which is: 1) Annual Festivals 2) Monthly New Moons 3) Annual Sabbaths ....He's covering the entire Jewish festal calender. Had he meant the weekly sabbath in verse 16, he would have failed to cover all the annual seasons of the Jews. Because heorte are never sabbatwn. ....The Greek word 'sabbatwn' is rendered in a manner never rendered for the weekly Sabbath. ...Plus Paul qualifies 'which' sabbaths he's referring to. Those 'WHICH are a shadow of things to come'. That means he's only referring to the shadowy ones, and shadows only piont foward to the cross according to the cross according to Col 2:17, not backward to creation. The weekly sabbath pointed backward to creation. See Gen 2:2,3;Ex.20:8-11,31:17; Mark 2:27. ....Also, the 'sabbaths' of Col 2:16 fall under the umbrella of those things that are "against us'. The entire festal calender with all its sacrifices was a testimony against the children of Israel for the sins they committed, because these feasts with their required sacrifices (see lev 23:37) were for the putpose of remedying and cleasing sin from the camp. Sin against what? The moral law, the 10 commandments, and all moral extensions of the 10 commandments. But the ceremonial law was put in place to deal with sin. ....However, the Weekly creation Sabbath was never "against us" as Col 2:14 and Deuteronomy 31:24-30 demand. Instead, it was "FOR" us (Mark 2:27). ...Not to mention that these have to do with sabbaths that are contained "in meat and drink" offerings. These meats and drinks mentioned in Col 2:14 are not referring to regular meals. But ceremonial offerings brought to the temple. See Ezekiel 45:17 for proof. Paul is practically alluding to the same order"jessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17476845198100325746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-87707801732790888852020-08-27T16:13:07.501-07:002020-08-27T16:13:07.501-07:00I think there is truth to what you're saying. ...I think there is truth to what you're saying. Keeping the Sabbath in a new and improved manner fits with what I'm saying. <br /><br />Also, I have a newer post on the Sabbath and Ten Commandments that might interest you: <br /><br />https://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2020/04/how-do-ten-commandments-fit-with-old.html Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-37483250543435270802020-08-27T08:17:56.131-07:002020-08-27T08:17:56.131-07:00Let's not make this complicated. Indeed, I too...Let's not make this complicated. Indeed, I too believe a way of keeping the Sabbath was practiced in Genesis... But remember Matthew 5:17-18. When Jesus came, he did not abolish the Law given to Moses, but FULFILLED it. To me, fulfilled means he kept the Sabbath a way that was NEW AND BETTER. No where do we see Jesus commanding us to keep the Sabbath like the Jews did. He kept it a NEW AND BETTER way. Matthew 11:28-30 tells us about this new REST we must accept, and the chapter afterwards in Matthew 12 tells us Jesus and his disciples broke the OLD WAY of keeping it. So, to fulfill simply means that we as Christians must keep it the RENEWED COVENANT way. It makes sense to me now as followers of Christ, WE MUST KEPT HOLY, BE IN THAT REST, EVERYDAY, not just one day! Peace :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05460785098268844296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-37889887637758020772018-06-13T11:00:14.213-07:002018-06-13T11:00:14.213-07:00Thomas Mason, he never said that. Read the discuss...Thomas Mason, he never said that. Read the discussion between Nick and Sobieski. They were saying the same thing, it just took Sobieski awhile to realize it. <br /><br />Interesting post Nick and what stood out to me was your point (6). The Council of Florence also makes the distinction of the Sabbath, check out Dezinger paragraph 712. Also I would like to add something I found from Blessed John Duns Scotus:<br />"The third precept of the first table, which is of observing the sabbath, is affirmative as far as to showing some worship to God at a determinate time; but as far as to the determination of this time or that, it is not part of the law of nature strictly speaking. Likewise, neither is it of the law of nature strictly speaking as far as to the other part, the negative, which is included there, by which a servile act is prohibited, for a determinate act, prohibiting one from then showing worship to God: for that act is not prohibited unless because it is impeding or holding back from that worship which is commanded" Ordinatio III d. 37 q. un. n. 21. I got the quote from <a href="http://lyfaber.blogspot.com/2007/11/scotus-on-sabbath.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.José F. Apolinarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01938043808633896036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-22594049541616284792014-08-07T12:39:46.850-07:002014-08-07T12:39:46.850-07:00I challenge you to find anywhere in scripture wher...I challenge you to find anywhere in scripture where any of the commandments God gave have been taken away or annulled. God is eternal and His Law is eternal as well. Actually, God gave all of His commandments only to Israel. He chose Israel as a nation that He set apart for His purpose and made a covenant with Israel. Through faith in Yeshua (Jesus) we are allowed to come into covenant with Him if we choose. Once in covenant with God through faith, we walk out our faith by keeping Gods commandments; all of them... including the Sabbath. Why wouldn't we keep commandments based on loving God and loving others.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156824343494319108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-6114268553516045332013-12-15T13:52:36.675-08:002013-12-15T13:52:36.675-08:00Hello Nick
You argued the following-
Romans 1:28...Hello Nick <br /><br />You argued the following-<br />Romans 1:28-31 shows many of the sins humanity falls into, and lists virtually every Commandment except the Sabbath. The same can be said for other lists of sins in the NT.<br /><br />However within the mentioned verses arise "And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God" by not honoring the Sabbath you would be guilty of such a thing, so your argument has no legs to stand upon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-9275404758867198102013-08-25T16:22:01.718-07:002013-08-25T16:22:01.718-07:00Anonymous,
It's not a argument from silence ...Anonymous, <br /><br />It's not a argument from silence when you consider that there are examples of 9 of the 10 Commandments being violated in the NT, but never of the Sabbath being violated. That's strange that in places like Corinth where idolatry, sexual immorality, coveting, abuse of the sacraments of Baptism and Communion, etc, are taking place, that you would assume they were actually very devoutly keeping the Sabbath. The fact is, breaking the Sabbath isn't a sin mentioned even once in the NT, when it was such a common thing in the OT that it's clear it is one of the main things that would be mentioned if it were so central. <br /><br />The NT is not silent on bestiality and incest, as sexual immorality is condemned repeatedly. It was more than obvious that only sexual relations between husband and wife was allowed. In fact, the argument you're making is effectively saying the 613 Mitzvot are still binding, which is Judaizing plain and simple, and it would be completely inconsistent logically and a serious violation to just cherry pick which of the 613 you feel are still binding. In other words the mitzvot against bestiality would still be binding either because (1) all 613 are still binding, or (2) because you're cherry picking which ones are still binding. Neither of those two options are going to work.<br /><br />Paul's primary message to the Gentiles is that they didn't have to live like Jews. This cannot be truncated down to 'dont get circumcised'. The whole point of circumcision is that it obligates a person to "keep the whole law". <br /><br />The fundamental problem with your approach to Christianity is that it isn't Christian at all but rather American. That's dangerous and it wont save you one iota on judgment day. Jesus will ask why you believed in an American Gospel of go-it-alone Christianity where each individual believes what they see fit and having no concern for finding the visible Church that's been around 2000 years. <br /><br />If you really believe something along the lines of "Everyone besides me got the Gospel wrong" then that is a HORRIBLE defense of your actions when you're standing before the judgment seat. <br /><br />Humility buddy, humility.<br /><br />The Church pre-existed you and has survived without you, so you'd best find the Church rather than build a new church around yourself.<br /><br /><br /><br />Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-81144952241394410602013-08-20T10:29:00.788-07:002013-08-20T10:29:00.788-07:00You wrote - The New Testament never commands Sabba...You wrote - The New Testament never commands Sabbath Keeping for Christians. The only time Sabbath keeping is mentioned in the New Testament is in reference to either the Jews keeping the Sabbath.....This is called an argument from silence....and is faulty logic....My Catholic bible New Testament including Apocrypha says slavery is quite acceptable and St Paul commands slaves to be obedient. The New Testament is strangely quiet on the issue on bestiality and incest. Can we infer from the silence that God approves? <br /><br />Could it be that Sabbath was so widespread - so part of their culture and calendar that an alternative was not even considered....considering the roots of the church was primarily based on a some Hebrew scriptures written by a bunch of Hebrew prophets about a Jewish Messiah. He claimed to have been sent to the tribes of Israel? He sent 12 Jewish guys and Jewish Rabbi Paul who wrote the New Testament. Paul said ..."Follow me" as I follow Christ....who just happened to be a Sabbatarian?<br /> <br />I do not know ... So why are we so eager to divorce our 4000 year past and now be planted in a history rooted in Rome not Jerusalem? I do not think Jesus will be too judgmental of me ...If my only justification for a worshiping on Sabbath is ...LORD, I DID WHAT YOU DID AND I FOLLOWED YOUR EXAMPLE.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-74659474877370579382013-07-13T10:06:46.605-07:002013-07-13T10:06:46.605-07:00That's not quite what I was getting at. There ...That's not quite what I was getting at. There are plenty of sins mentioned in Genesis up through Exodus 15. If Sabbath keeping was so crucial, it would have been mentioned, especially because there should have been people breaking it left and right, especially among Cain's lineage. <br /><br />God speaking to Cain reveals that God had some kind of intimate communion with the early humans, but what He told them is not fully recorded. Something like murder Cain would have known from Natural Law or from God laying it out plainly. Nothing of this sort is recorded in regards to the Sabbath. <br /><br />Nobody can 'just know' everything there is to know about the Sabbath. They must get this information from divine revelation and tradition. <br /><br />Romans 1:28-31 shows many of the sins humanity falls into, and lists virtually every Commandment except the Sabbath. The same can be said for other lists of sins in the NT. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-84594063370129047122013-07-13T06:08:34.448-07:002013-07-13T06:08:34.448-07:00______________
Nick said,
The main issue I have...______________ <br /><i>Nick said,<br /><br /><br />The main issue I have with your claim that Genesis is more about origins than commands is the plain fact that nobody is ever accused of breaking the Sabbath. For such a crucial teaching, you'd think that this would be found right along with idolatry and other such sins. But there's no mention of Sabbath keeping until Exodus 16, when God formally institutes it with Moses. And that's the key you're not realizing, that <b>the Sabbath as an event in history and the Sabbath as a formally commanded day of rest are not the same.</b></i><br />______________<br /><br />Hi Nick,<br /><br />So until we see the issue spontaneously pop up in the Genesis narrative then it wasn't previously an issue? According to Scripture, that doesn't fly. After Cain's disapproved sacrifice (on what revealed basis was it disapproved?) God spoke to Cain and said, "You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master." The conversation between God and Cain presupposes that Cain already knows the right thing to DO. He already knows what is right. God didn't arbitrarily punish Cain for murdering Abel. Cain knew that murder was a sin. The Genesis narrative doesn't provide all the nuances of right and wrong. But to suppose that lying was allowable until there's a "mention of it" is not in keeping with an all-knowing God. <br /><br />The Sabbath is much more readily apparent than the issue of not murdering your brother. Adam and Eve were created on the sixth day and would've been alive when God instituted the Sabbath by resting, blessing and making holy the seventh day. <br /><br />• Since God is all-powerful and needs no rest, why would He rest on this day if not as an example for His newly created humans? <br />• Since God is holy, He doesn't need a day to be holy for Himself. It's obvious He made the day holy for His newly created children. <br />• Since God is the Giver of blessings, there is no reason to bless a day—unless it is for His newly created children. <br />• The entire creation account pivots around those who would ultimately be placed in charge of the planet—humans. <br /><br />As Jesus plainly stated, "The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath." He used a broadly inclusive word, anthropos, which is not ethnic specific (i.e. Jews). The Sabbath was "made" when things were made. "In the beginning." Since there weren't any Jews at the creation, that means the Sabbath was made for humanity's benefit. That's why Isaiah records that God wants people to call His Sabbath "a delight." <br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-80727848724596418282013-06-27T12:47:42.696-07:002013-06-27T12:47:42.696-07:00The main issue I have with your claim that Genesis...The main issue I have with your claim that Genesis is more about origins than commands is the plain fact that nobody is ever accused of breaking the Sabbath. For such a crucial teaching, you'd think that this would be found right along with idolatry and other such sins. But there's no mention of Sabbath keeping until Exodus 16, when God formally institutes it with Moses. And that's the key you're not realizing, that <b>the Sabbath as an event in history and the Sabbath as a formally commanded day of rest are not the same</b>. <br /><br />Your approach makes nonsense out of Exodus 16 and other texts like Ex31: "The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed."<br />Clearly, the Sabbath pertains in a very unique way to the Israelites. To turn this into some universal day of rest is to pervert the purpose of the command and 'sign' of the Sabbath. <br />Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-83707465212757678262013-06-26T13:00:06.131-07:002013-06-26T13:00:06.131-07:00______________
Nick said...
#2, you said the Sabba...______________<br /><i>Nick said...<br />#2, you said the Sabbath was a day for our benefit. That's fine, but it doesn't say anything about the legally-binding nature of the Sabbath after the Resurrection. </i><br />______________<br /><br />Hi Nick,<br /><br />The Sabbath is a tenth of the Ten Commandment covenant (Deuteronomy 4:13). Most Christians have no problem with the idea that the Ten Commandments are still a binding reflection of God's desire for His people. The problem comes when the commandment that says to "Remember" is brought up amongst people who wish to forget it. For some reason, this singular commandment is isolated as being unnecessary and a burden. But tell me, how is something which Jesus says He "made for humanity" to be considered a burden? How is something which the prophet records God as saying to "call the Sabbath a delight" (Isaiah 58:13) something which became a burden? Why would remembering our Creator once every seventh day as a memorial of His creative act ever be considered unnecessary? Isn't it the very fact that it was our Creator who was crucified and resurrected that makes our salvation possible? <br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-20387436839090470112013-06-26T12:32:06.430-07:002013-06-26T12:32:06.430-07:00______________
Nick said...
#1, you said the Sabb...______________<br />Nick said...<br /><br />#1, you said the Sabbath is a memorial. That's fine, but you need to recognize that I'm not advocating supplanting the Sabbath with Sunday. Remembering the resting Saturday from creation is a different commemoration from remembering the Resurrection on Sunday. And remember my first argument, which is that never is man told to keep the sabbath between the time of Eden and Egypt. The first time men are commanded to keep the Sabbath is in Exodus 16, given only to the Israelites.<br />______________<br /><br />Hi Nick,<br /><br />Genesis is a book primarily of origins, not commands. Thus you will not find any commands against murder and adultery, yet Cain was punished by God for his sin of murdering Abel. Much later we read the story of Joseph and his encounter with Potiphar's wife and discover the reason he will not give in to her suggestion to "Come to bed with me!" was because he knew that it was a "wicked thing" and a "sin against God" (see Genesis 39:7). Sin is not left to our own imagination. It is directly related to transgression of the revealed will of God. But we do not see anything previous to this encounter which would indicate how Joseph was aware that adultery was a "sin against God." <br /><br />Let me just pull out the ingredients that make up the Sabbath in the Exodus account and you can compare for yourself whether the ingredients from Genesis will bake the same cake:<br /><br /><i>Exodus 20:8-11 <br />Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days <b>(1)the LORD made the heavens and the earth,</b> the sea, and all that is in them, but he <b>(2)rested</b> on the <b>(3)seventh day.</b> Therefore the LORD <b>(4)blessed the Sabbath day</b> and made it <b>(5)holy.</b></i><br /><br />Some people believe that the Sabbath finds its origin in the book of Exodus. They claim that one cannot establish it’s existence any earlier since the term “Sabbath” is not used prior to Exodus 16. But is this position justified? What is it that makes the Sabbath the Sabbath? For the sake of clarity I’ve numbered the various ingredients in the passage above that, when combined, make up the Sabbath. <br /><br /><b>(1) Creation<br />(2) Rest<br />(3) Seventh day<br />(4) Blessed<br />(5) Holy</b><br /><br />There you see the five ingredients that make up what we know as the Sabbath. Now let’s compare this Exodus passage with the creation account found in Genesis and see if we find those same five ingredients again:<br /><br /><i>Genesis 2:1-3<br />So the <b>(1)creation of the heavens and the earth</b> and everything in them was completed. On the <b>(3)seventh day</b>, having finished his task, God <b>(2)rested</b> from all his work. And God <b>(4)blessed the seventh day</b> and declared it <b>(5)holy</b>, because it was the day when he rested from his work of creation.</i><br /><br />Not only do we find the same five ingredients in both passages of Scripture, but we also find very similar phraseology. <br /><br />From Genesis:<br />“... And God <b>(4)blessed the seventh day</b> and declared it <b>(5)holy</b>”<br />From Exodus:<br />“... the LORD <b>(4)blessed the Sabbath day</b> and made it <b>(5)holy.</b>"<br /><br />So while there is no command revealed in the book of origins, we see do find that the Sabbath is explicitly spelled out. Since Jesus says, "The Sabbath was made for humanity"—and since the only humanity living at this time was Adam and Eve—it is plain to see that He established the Sabbath and it was "made" when things were made, "In the beginning."<br /><br />I pray this helps.Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-62983701811957469842013-06-25T20:29:21.955-07:002013-06-25T20:29:21.955-07:00lcyspark,
It seems as if you just cut and pasted...lcyspark, <br /><br />It seems as if you just cut and pasted rather than interact with my arguments. That doesn't help anyone. Here are my thoughts on what you wrote:<br /><br />#1, you said the Sabbath is a memorial. That's fine, but you need to recognize that I'm not advocating supplanting the Sabbath with Sunday. Remembering the resting Saturday from creation is a different commemoration from remembering the Resurrection on Sunday. And remember my first argument, which is that never is man told to keep the sabbath between the time of Eden and Egypt. The first time men are commanded to keep the Sabbath is in Exodus 16, given only to the Israelites.<br /><br />#2, you said the Sabbath was a day for our benefit. That's fine, but it doesn't say anything about the legally-binding nature of the Sabbath after the Resurrection. <br /><br />#3, you said Jesus kept the Sabbath. This doesn't prove anything about Sabbath keeping in the future. Jesus lived as an observant Jew of all the commands in the Torah. <br /><br />#4, you said the disciples kept the Sabbath because they went to the tomb to anoint Jesus body late Friday so they could rest on the Sabbath. That's a bad example because the fullness of Revelation had not yet come. They didn't realize a New Covenant was being instituted. They didn't realize that many of their Jewish customs, including dietary restrictions, would be loosed. <br /><br />#5, you said Paul kept the Sabbath. But the text you cited merely say Paul went into the Synagogue on Saturday in order to preach the Gospel. Paul certainly was not going to the Synagogue to partake in business as usual, as if the Messiah had not come!Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-39751565442166058312013-06-22T20:56:41.712-07:002013-06-22T20:56:41.712-07:005. PAUL KEPT THE SABBATH
Acts 17:2, 3
As his custo...<b>5. PAUL KEPT THE SABBATH</b><br /><i>Acts 17:2, 3<br /><b>As his custom was</b>, Paul went into the synagogue, and <b>on three Sabbath days</b> he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ,” he said.</i><br /><br />After his conversion (recorded in Acts 9) Paul continues his "custom" of going to synagogue on the Sabbath. Not only was this his regular habit but the Bible also records that Paul preached to both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath for a year and a half!<br /><br /><i>Acts 18:4, 11<br />Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews <b>and Greeks</b>.<br /><br />So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.</i><br /><br />So, "Every Sabbath" for a "year and a half" Paul reasons in the synagogue with both Jews and Greeks (i.e. Gentiles). That's a biblical record of 76 Sabbaths in which Paul is preaching to Jews <b>and</b> Gentiles. <br /><br /><i>1 Corinthians 11:1<br />Follow <b>my example</b>, as I follow the <b>example of Christ</b>.</i><br /><br />As we would expect from an apostle of Christ, Paul acknowledges that he follows "the example of Christ." Paul's actions testify to the fact that "his custom" of Sabbath observance was the same as the custom of Jesus. Paul then goes on to assert that you should not only follow Christ's example but you should also follow his own example. Are you following the examples left for you by both Jesus and Paul? <br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-49036694812655519712013-06-22T20:51:09.570-07:002013-06-22T20:51:09.570-07:004. DISCIPLES KEPT THE SABBATH AFTER THE CROSS
Luke...<b>4. DISCIPLES KEPT THE SABBATH AFTER THE CROSS</b><br /><i>Luke 23:56<br />Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. <b>But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.</b></i><br /><br />Because Jesus never intended to put an end to the regular seven day cycle He set in motion for humanity's (anthropos) benefit and "delight," Jesus never informed them that it was no longer necessary to observe the Sabbath after His death. This is confirmed by the fact that His closest followers—those who went out of their way to see to His burial preparations—still "rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment." If Jesus did not intend for the Sabbath to be included in His new covenant then He needed to add this to His will before He died. After the death of the Testator nothing can be added or subtracted from that person's will (see Hebrews 9:16-17). <br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-13167280747619150812013-06-22T20:47:17.574-07:002013-06-22T20:47:17.574-07:003. JESUS KEPT THE SABBATH
Luke 4:16
[Jesus] went t...<b>3. JESUS KEPT THE SABBATH</b><br /><i>Luke 4:16<br />[Jesus] went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and <b>on the Sabbath day</b> he went into the synagogue, <b>as was his custom</b>. And he stood up to read.</i><br /><br />It was Jesus's regular practice to assemble together with other believers on the Sabbath day. Leviticus 23:3 says that the Sabbath is "a day of sacred assembly." You can certainly worship God on all days of the week, but the Sabbath is the day Jesus set aside for worshipping with other believers in a corporate setting. It is a day set apart—a "holy day"—on which holy people are to rest from their own works and be blessed on the day that Jesus blessed. <br /><br /><i>1 Peter 2:21<br />To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, <b>leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps</b>.</i><br /><br />Jesus is our example in all things and following the things He did should not give anyone cause for concern. On the contrary, it is in doing those things which Jesus <b>never</b> did and never told us to do which we should seriously question the safety of such position. Keeping the Sabbath is in keeping with following Jesus's steps. <br /><br /><i>1 John 2:6<br />Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did.</i><br /><br />Again, if we are to "walk as Jesus did" it is a simple thing to ascertain that the example He left was to regularly assemble together with believers on the day He personally blessed and continues to make holy.<br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-69871331334635355372013-06-22T20:45:00.591-07:002013-06-22T20:45:00.591-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-53729103741686918012013-06-22T20:37:06.287-07:002013-06-22T20:37:06.287-07:002. A DAY FOR OUR BENEFIT
Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you k...<b>2. A DAY FOR OUR BENEFIT</b><br /><i>Isaiah 58:13-14<br />“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you <b>call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD’s holy day honorable</b>, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” The mouth of the LORD has spoken.</i><br /><br />Through His prophet Isaiah, Jesus portrays His holy day as something to delight in. If Jesus says to delight in His Sabbath I'm certain that there must be a blessing to be obtained by observing the day He blessed. <br /><br /><i>Mark 2:27<br /> Then he said to them, “<b>The Sabbath was made for man</b> (444 anthropos; human being), not man for the Sabbath.</i><br /><br />Not only is the Sabbath affirmed as something to "delight" in, but Jesus Himself takes the opportunity to make it clear that when He made the Sabbath on the seventh day of creation it was made for the benefit of all humanity. The word for man in this text is "anthropos" which means people. Thus the Sabbath is for men and women, Jews and Gentiles, slaves and those who are free. All humanity can delight in the benefits of having a day off to remember their Creator and to rest from their own works. <br /><br />I pray this helps.<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-86139996492347104412013-06-22T20:30:06.746-07:002013-06-22T20:30:06.746-07:001. SABBATH AS A MEMORIAL
Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the he...<b>1. SABBATH AS A MEMORIAL</b><br /><i>Genesis 2:1-3<br />Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.<br />By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.<br /><br />Exodus 20:8-11<br />“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.</i><br /><br />One of the reasons Jesus gives for regularly observing His Sabbath is in reference to the singular monumental event in this world's history—its creation. The Sabbath is a weekly reminder that Jesus created this Earth (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17). It is a day to rest from our works just as Jesus rested from His (Hebrews 4:7-10). It is to this very fact of being the Creator that Jesus appeals to over and over in the Scriptures as validation for His claim to being the one and only true God (1 Chronicles 16:23-27; 2 Kings 19:15; 2 Chronicles 2:12; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6; 96:5; 102:25-27; 115:15; 121:2; Isaiah 37:16; 40:20; 45:18; Jeremiah 10:12; 27:5; 32:17; 33:2, 3; 51:15; Jonah 1:9; Job 26:7; Acts 4:24; 14:15; 17:24; Revelation 14:7). <br /><br /><i>Psalm 111:2-4<br />Great are the works of the LORD; they are pondered by all who delight in them. Glorious and majestic are his deeds, and his righteousness endures forever. <b>He has caused his wonders to be remembered</b>; the LORD is gracious and compassionate.</i><br /><br />If Jesus says to "Remember the Sabbath," and this remembering is directly connected to the "wonders" of His creation, why is it that people find this something they wish to forget? If one were to develop a hierarchy of the most important events in human history would not the act of creation rank toward the very top? Aside from the life, death and resurrection of the Creator, what other event do you suppose would be more worthy of remembering? Interestingly, even though Jesus nor His disciples ever hinted at any regularly repeating recognition for His resurrection, there are some who insist that we honor Sunday as a resurrection memorial. So while we have no divine command for a weekly remembering of the resurrection (making it a tradition of men), we likewise have no command overturning the weekly remembering of the creation. About this Jesus asks, "Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"<br /><br />But for the grace of God go <b>I,cyspark</b>Icysparkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139738002100052796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-42414690383907273862012-09-04T10:16:07.538-07:002012-09-04T10:16:07.538-07:00Hello Sobieski,
Thank you for that link showing ...Hello Sobieski, <br /><br />Thank you for that link showing the Ten Commandments 'abstracted' from their historical context. That is precisely what I'm getting at! In that sense, yes, the moral precepts preceded and existed beyond the dispensation. But this also means there is a danger of equivocation between the Abstracted Decalogue and the Historical Decalogue, which is what I've been trying to avoid doing. <br /><br />For the purpose of doing moral theology and philosophy, we would be dealing with the Abstracted Decalogue, but for the purpose of doing historical theology and exegesis, the Historical Decalogue is what is being dealt with. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-42862178552661846622012-09-02T11:45:28.607-07:002012-09-02T11:45:28.607-07:00continued...
(3) I think "letter" vs. &...continued...<br /><br />(3) I think "letter" vs. "spirit" of the law in the context of the Decalogue makes more sense in terms of its determinations to particular circumstances. So the spirit of the law is to remain free of sin as opposed to say engaging ritual cleaning while committing sin as Our Lord explains in today's Gospel. Nevertheless, in both the old and new dispensations people are to follow the Ten Commandments always as Our Lord instructs, but in a true as opposed to exterior or superficial way. I.e., we are not to strain the gnat and swallow the camel, leaving aside the weighter aspects of the law. <br /><br />(4) I don't see why we need to read the text verbatim or why we have to say the Decalogue as revealed and applied word-for-word can't be disentangled from that context. The moral precepts found in that text are the same "always and everywhere," while the circumstances or further determinations (Saturday worship) have changed. I think we ultimately do agree in terms of the moral precepts of the Law, but your position seems to be that we can only truly speak of the Ten Commandments in the context of the Mosaic Covenant. But that seems to plainly go against the text of the Catechism and teaching of the Church as no such qualification or distinction like this is made as regards the Commandments. So again I think comments like the following are misleading at best:<br /><br />"Those who insist on making the Ten Commandments an eternal standard of morality become guilty of cutting and pasting their doctrine from the Bible."<br /><br />"[W]hen Jesus ended and fulfilled the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments most certainly were abolished along with it!"<br /><br />"To treat the Ten Commandments as a law in itself as a rule to follow is saying the Mosaic Law is the path to salvation, which is a great heresy!"Sobieskinoreply@blogger.com