tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post3822821647641220165..comments2024-03-15T09:07:15.798-07:00Comments on NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: Penal Substitution is the key to understanding Protestant Evangelicalism.Nickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comBlogger178125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-64601860705053878242017-04-12T06:28:41.918-07:002017-04-12T06:28:41.918-07:00
SO MANY (!) of your objections are confronted dir...<br />SO MANY (!) of your objections are confronted directly in this work:<br /><br />https://smile.amazon.com/Pierced-Our-Transgressions-Rediscovering-Substitution/dp/1433501082/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8Eucharist Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-58434996502873943182016-06-01T01:56:06.624-07:002016-06-01T01:56:06.624-07:00I think the Catholic and Protestant theologies of ...I think the Catholic and Protestant theologies of atonement both have the notion of God's wrath being appeased. It's just that the Catholic notion of God's appeasement is that the sweet odour of Christ's sacrifice totally takes away the stench of man's sins in God's nostrils, whereas the Protestant notion is that all that stench is gathered into one place in Christ so that God can let out all his anger once and for all. The thing about the Protestant notion is that it implies God the Father was looking down upon God the Son, dying on the cross, with hatred, rather than with love and compassion. This has awful consequences for Christian spirituality, because it becomes impossible to feel united to God's love whenever you are suffering, and you take your suffering as a sign of God's wrath towards you. The Protestant notion also fails to explain how the mere pouring out of God's wrath can cause God to love men MORE than he loved them prior to the Fall; this is what leads Protestants to think that the blessed in heaven aren't actually holy and blessed in themselves.Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-32908364306985381282016-05-27T19:11:28.554-07:002016-05-27T19:11:28.554-07:00Thanks, you've helped me understand the differ...Thanks, you've helped me understand the difference between Catholic and Calvinist faith.<br /><br />Calvinism is that God became man to pour out his wrath upon the world; the Catholic faith is that God became man to pour out his love upon the world.Catholicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03752056093814096521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-56370828057766354372015-10-01T10:35:39.264-07:002015-10-01T10:35:39.264-07:00Ron,
One more thing. Pope St. John Paul II also b...Ron,<br /><br />One more thing. Pope St. John Paul II also believed that our Lord took the sins of humanity upon Himself and suffered the punishment due our sins, all the while maintaining His loving union with the Father. He called this a mystery, how Jesus could experience the separation caused by sin and at the same time experience the separation that sin causes. This belief of the late Pontiff is apparent throughout his teaching.<br /><br />Peace,<br />EJ<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-83290942551130164962015-10-01T10:32:50.885-07:002015-10-01T10:32:50.885-07:00Hi Ron,
Notice this passage from the article I po...Hi Ron,<br /><br />Notice this passage from the article I posted:<br /><br />For what reason, Pope Francis asked, would “the Lord choose this bad, ugly figure?”. He responded that it was simply “because Jesus came to take all our sins upon himself”, becoming “the greatest sinner without having ever committed a sin.” This is why Paul tells us that Jesus became sin for us. Using this figure, then, Christ became a serpent. “It's an ugly figure!” the Pontiff said, but He really did “become sin to save us. This is the message in today’s liturgy.” This is precisely “Jesus’ path: God became man and bore his sin.”<br /><br />Apparently, our Holy Father Pope Francis believes the opposite of what is posted on this blog, that Jesus became sin by taking our sins upon Himself.<br /><br />I hope this helps.<br /><br />Peace,<br />EJ<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-79140348513134132552015-10-01T10:29:14.866-07:002015-10-01T10:29:14.866-07:00Mass at Santa Marta - On the path of humility
201...Mass at Santa Marta - On the path of humility<br /><br />2015-09-14 L’Osservatore Romano<br /><br />When contemplating Jesus on the cross, we ought not to look at those paintings that are far too beautiful and do not represent the harsh reality of the harrowing ordeal. Pope Francis used these words, as well as the image of an “ugly serpent” to make his meditation more dynamic and incisive. The cross and the serpent were the central theme of the Pope’s homily at Mass on Monday morning, September 14, the feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, which was celebrated in the chapel of Santa Marta and attended by the cardinal advisers.<br /><br />“It seems that the protagonist of today’s readings is the serpent, and there is a message here”, Pope Francis immediately pointed out. Yes, “there is a profound prophecy in this presentation of the serpent”, which, he explained, “was the first animal to be presented to man, the first of which the Bible mentions” and defines as the smartest of the wild animals God created. The Pope said that “the serpent’s figure is not beautiful, it always arouses fear”. Even if “the snake’s skin is beautiful, the fact remains that the snake’s behavior is scary.”<br /><br />Referring to today’s first reading from the book of Numbers (21:4-9), Francis said that “to save them from the serpent’s venom, the Lord told Moses to make a bronze serpent, and that whoever looked at that serpent would be saved.” The Pope went on to say that “this is an illustration, a prophecy, and a promise. It is a promise that is not easy to understand.” Today's Gospel (John 3:13-17) tells us that “Jesus himself explained Moses’ act a bit further to Nicodemus”: that just as he had “lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.” The Pope said that “the bronze serpent was a figure of Jesus raised up on the Cross.”<br /><br />For what reason, Pope Francis asked, would “the Lord choose this bad, ugly figure?”. He responded that it was simply “because Jesus came to take all our sins upon himself”, becoming “the greatest sinner without having ever committed a sin.” This is why Paul tells us that Jesus became sin for us. Using this figure, then, Christ became a serpent. “It's an ugly figure!” the Pontiff said, but He really did “become sin to save us. This is the message in today’s liturgy.” This is precisely “Jesus’ path: God became man and bore his sin.”<br /><br />In the second reading from the Letter to the Philippians (2:6-11), Paul explains this mystery, and the Pope noted that he did so out of love: “Though he was in the form of God, Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men; And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross.” Pope Francis repeated that Jesus “emptied himself: He became sin for us, he who knew no sin.” This, therefore, “is the mystery”, and “we can say that he became like a serpent, so to speak, which is ugly and disgusting.”<br /><br />“This is also the Christian’s path”, the Pope added. Indeed, “if a Christian wants to make progress on the path of the Christian life, he must lower himself, as Jesus lowered himself: this is the path of humility”, which means “bringing humiliations upon yourself, as Jesus did.” The Pope said that this is precisely the message given to us in “today's liturgy on this feast of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross”. He concluded by saying that the Lord “gives us the grace that we ask of Our Lady who was under the Cross: the grace to cry, to cry out of love, to cry out of gratitude, because our God loved us so much that He sent His Son to lower himself and allow himself to be crushed in order to save us.”<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-43833484609630956922015-08-18T16:57:56.884-07:002015-08-18T16:57:56.884-07:00Hi,
Sorry if this question has already been aske...Hi, <br /><br />Sorry if this question has already been asked. I went through as many of the comments as time permitted.<br /><br />2 Cor 5:21 states that Jesus became Sin. I understand that Paul, as 2nd temple Jew is referring to the Sin Offering. My Protestant friends use this verse to claim Jesus became Sin judicially, wth actual Sin. <br /><br />I've explained that Jesus was that Paul at no time says Jesus was Made Sin as to be a guilty sinner. I believe this is impossible because Jesus in both his human nature and his devine nature would not be sin or actual sin. Jesus had NO sin. My explaination included that Jesus on the Cross is still under the Old Covenant sacrifical system. According to the right of atoning sacrifices in Lev 4:24, 5:9, Num 19:9, Mic 6:7 and Ps 40:7, the word "Sin" refersto the actual sacrifice of the victim being offered. So the ter became SIN, would be understood "He made him a victim for sin or a sacrifice for sin. <br /><br />If Jesus became Actual Sin, then God has fractured the Hypostatic Union. So my question is this: If Jesus becomes Sin, in any way, shape or form, He would have to become Sin and his nature would be Sinful. He would thus assume the nature of Sin. The way I see it, if Jesus does assume the Nature of Sin, the has assumed the nature of satan. Can this be possible?<br /><br />I say this because the only person in the New Testament to assume the nature of satan is Judas at the account of the Last Supper in Johns gospel. Jesus dips bread and when Judas accepts this symbolic bread of denial of his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, Judas assumes the nature of satan and they abide one in the other.<br /><br />Is this a valid argument?<br /><br />Thanks, in advance,<br /><br />Ron Sr. <br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678826505740647618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-49475890098135142832015-06-17T06:31:37.923-07:002015-06-17T06:31:37.923-07:00From the Morning Prayer of the Liturgy of the Hour...From the Morning Prayer of the Liturgy of the Hours for today, the psalm-prayer:<br /><br />"Lord Jesus, you have revealed your justice to all nations. We stood condemned and you came to be judged in our place. Send your saving power on us and when you come in glory bring your mercy to those for whom you were condemned."<br /><br />ME: Sounds penal and substitutionary to me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-31070496654560602182015-06-13T10:41:24.879-07:002015-06-13T10:41:24.879-07:00No more Creed Code Cult "discussions."No more Creed Code Cult "discussions."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-88005713249772384922015-05-19T22:34:42.126-07:002015-05-19T22:34:42.126-07:00EJ,
"He suffered in the realm of his senses....EJ,<br /><br />"He suffered in the realm of his senses..."?<br /><br />Do you think I don't know that? Do you even know what my position is?<br /><br />You seem to think I deny that Christ suffered. Are you trying to put words in my mouth?<br />I quit. There is no point arguing with a Calvinist sympathizer interested only in making a name for himself by taking down fellow Catholics in order to appear fair and open minded in front of Protestant bloggers.<br />End of discussion. Adios Amigo.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-75317148551832108872015-05-19T22:28:31.034-07:002015-05-19T22:28:31.034-07:00E.J.,
Did the Pope or Bishop Sheen say anything a...E.J.,<br /><br />Did the Pope or Bishop Sheen say anything about the Father unleashing his fury on the Son?<br /><br />Imputation of active and passive obedience?<br /><br />Limited atonement?<br /><br />No?<br />Then you ain't talking about Penal Substitution. You should stop defending it until you understand just what it is we Catholics are objecting to.<br />And you have not gotten yourself untangled from all of the heresies that accompany this heresy just because you say you don't believe them yourself.<br />James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-26642391794249509302015-05-17T12:03:09.877-07:002015-05-17T12:03:09.877-07:00Christ suffered the punishment due to us for our s...Christ suffered the punishment due to us for our sins. He experienced in the realm of his senses what separation from God because of sin entails. So says Pope St. John Paul II. <br /><br />I'll stick with him.<br /><br />It is not "shoehorning" a "construct." It is the clear teaching of the late Pontiff. You just don't like it because you have some type of agenda.<br /><br />You would also have to accuse Archbishop Sheen of shoehorning because he also believed that our Lord suffered the punishment due to our sins on the Cross.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-21676786413658081922015-05-17T08:00:57.692-07:002015-05-17T08:00:57.692-07:00Through Mother Mary to Lord Jesus.
Whoever goes ...Through Mother Mary to Lord Jesus. <br /><br />Whoever goes on this route will definitely reach the destination.Online Journalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09126573886366564851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-33777988259344973792015-05-17T01:28:38.722-07:002015-05-17T01:28:38.722-07:00EJ,
By the way, if Christ was punished in our ste...EJ,<br /><br />By the way, if Christ was punished in our stead for our failure to keep the Law, he would have been stoned, not crucified.<br />And under no circumstances would he have been sacrificed. Remember, there was no sacrifice for high handed or mortal sin. Only stoning.<br />His Body might have been hung on a tree, but only after stoning.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-66157789602952636922015-05-10T22:57:32.223-07:002015-05-10T22:57:32.223-07:00E.J.,
After clicking on the link, scroll down and...E.J.,<br /><br />After clicking on the link, scroll down and read the 4 chapters dealing with Mary's merit, atonement, satisfaction and ransom.<br /><br />You, my friend, are trying to shoehorn a Calvinist construct into a Catholic system and it doesn't work.<br />James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-77646552659206259052015-05-10T22:45:23.903-07:002015-05-10T22:45:23.903-07:00http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/author/fr-cornel...http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/author/fr-cornelis-freithoff/<br /><br />Read it and weep EJ.<br /><br />Merit,satisfaction,ransom and atonement. NO PS!James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-88607241708868782852015-05-10T22:41:02.837-07:002015-05-10T22:41:02.837-07:00EJ,
Since Mary satisfied and ransomed us with Jes...EJ,<br />Since Mary satisfied and ransomed us with Jesus ( in a subordinate way of course ), was she a penal substitute?<br /><br />According to the Fathers, Jesus ( and Mary ) untied the know tied by Adam and Eve's disobedience. We the Father's believers in PS?James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-49769716494762667642015-05-10T22:33:18.960-07:002015-05-10T22:33:18.960-07:00EJ
Jesus did not make satisfaction for Mary as sh...EJ<br /><br />Jesus did not make satisfaction for Mary as she had no sin. Nor did He ransom her back from the devil as she was never under his dominion. IOW, he was not her Penal Substitute.<br />He merited for her, though. He merited the grace by which she could cooperate with him in ransoming and making satisfaction for us.<br />PS does not fit.<br /><br />Back to the Great Exchange where our sins are imputed to Christ and his righteousness is imputed to us. In heaven there will be no faith to apprehend that imputed righteousness. There won't even be any imputation of anything. Only Charity will remain. Charity is never imputed.<br />PS is all about imputation.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-53033092533444912272015-05-10T10:07:07.914-07:002015-05-10T10:07:07.914-07:00"EJ",
JPII was big on Divine Mercy and..."EJ",<br /><br />JPII was big on Divine Mercy and Fatima too. One of Lucia's visions was of all three Persons of the Trinity with the Father supporting Jesus crucified.<br />http://orbis-catholicus.blogspot.pt/2007/03/fatima-last-great-vision-1929-in-tuy.htmlJames Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-90385485900948868062015-05-10T05:19:32.283-07:002015-05-10T05:19:32.283-07:00"E.J."
Was Jesus inflicted with a sinfu..."E.J."<br /><br />Was Jesus inflicted with a sinful disposition to commit sin? Or just imputed as such by the Father?<br />Did he have guilt? Or just considered as such by his Father.<br />Was he under bondage to the devil? PS denies the "harrowing of Hell" in no uncertain terms.<br /> Just what do you mean by PS? You say the Calvinists have drawn faulty conclusions from the doctrine. <br /><br />Please, don't just keep repeating the Pope's words. Tell me why and how the Pope isn't the Calvinist you seem to think he is. James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-31850892258966434612015-05-10T04:27:47.960-07:002015-05-10T04:27:47.960-07:00EJ,
"JPII believed an taught this AND he bel...EJ,<br /><br />"JPII believed an taught this AND he believed and taught that Jesus took our personal sins onto Himself, suffered, and redeemed us through that suffering."<br /><br />You had better qualify this so you are not saying the Father punished Jesus.<br /><br />Have you misunderstood me all along? Do you think I have been denying Christ paid for our sins?<br />Please, it is HOW he paid for our sins that we are discussing, isn't it?<br /><br />I am not disputing the Popes words. I am disputing the Calvinist spin you are foisting on him.James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-27562654248538996152015-05-10T04:18:40.006-07:002015-05-10T04:18:40.006-07:00E.J.,
Christ merited grace for us. Not just to b...E.J.,<br /><br />Christ merited grace for us. Not just to be considered righteous by the Father via imputation but to actually become righteous.<br />A transaction between the Father and the Son that leaves man unjust in his soul is no atonement at all. ( By the way, the purpose of those OT sacrifices was to restore the sinner to God, the community and himself ).<br /><br />From the first instant of the Incarnation, Christ merited more than enough grace to restore us to friendship/sonship. Anything beyond that was over the top.<br />Punishment, an eye for an eye, or any form of satisfaction, especially if transferred to a third party, can be set aside altogether if sufficient Charity is involved. Christ had it.<br />PS says ,"NO!. The law has been transgressed and someone, anyone, must die".<br /><br />PS is part of a scheme that says our sins are imputed and Christ's righteousness is imputed. It the " Great Exchange" as the Calvinists call it.<br />Imputation does not change the heart of the sinner. As long as the sinner's heart is not transformed, atonement hasn't happened because that wicked heart is demanding punishment.<br /><br />Again, the four facets of the atonement are, Merit, Satisfaction, sacrifice and Ransom. PS is not the fifth.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-88653712697165229692015-05-10T04:01:26.119-07:002015-05-10T04:01:26.119-07:00E.J.,
You wrote,
" This is not God punishing ...E.J.,<br />You wrote,<br />" This is not God punishing us from without, it is sin itself that causes this “punishment.”<br /><br />Elsewhere, Aquinas says that sin is one of the punishments for sin. He meant that each sin leaves a tendency to repeat it that punishes us.<br /><br />Please click on some of supplied links. PS does not agree with either you or Aquinas.<br /><br />The PS I ( and I believe Nick )am/are opposed to is the PS of Sproul and MacArthur.<br />PS says the Father pours out his hot angry on the Son and that Christ experienced the terror and separation of the damned. <br />PS says our sins were imputed to Christ and his righteousness is IMPUTED to us.<br /><br />Sorry, but I don't see that in JPII.<br />James Rosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14111037364653005571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-80942954981621377802015-05-09T23:20:36.315-07:002015-05-09T23:20:36.315-07:00“guy fawkes”
You said: “Do I have an animus for P...“guy fawkes”<br /><br />You said: “Do I have an animus for Protestants? Just the virulently anti-Catholic ones…”<br /><br />ME: Animus means a strong dislike or hatred. Aren’t we supposed to speak the truth in love? Why would you want to be just like those you disagree with? Show some mercy.<br /><br />You said: “…like Michael, the guy whose side you weighed in on over on CCC”<br /><br />ME: Hardly.<br /><br />You said: “But judging from your tone, both here and on CCC, you sure have a bone to pick with Nick. It's palpable.”<br /><br />ME: Yes, I have a “bone” to pick with Nick. But it’s not personal. It’s only business. Theological business. It’s not personal, I don’t know Nick, he’s probably a fine young man. But I think he’s dead wrong in his view on this subject.<br /><br />You said: “You came on that blog with both pistols blazing and aligned your self with men who have only contempt for the Catholic Church. That is what is called, "guilt by association".<br /><br />ME: Hardly. You use such a violent metaphor, maybe indicative of your own personal animus. Why be so angry?<br /><br />And “guilt by association”? Hardly. You can’t see the forest for the trees. Relax, take a step back. <br /><br />You said: “ If you don't think you did, please go back and read your comments. You set the nasty tone, not me Deacon Cassidy.”<br /><br />ME: Now, there you go again. I didn’t say I was a deacon. I said I was a deacon candidate. Do you understand the difference? I am still a layman at this point. And if you are confused about this, when I have been clear about my status, you have to ask yourself what else you are mistaken about.<br /><br />And I didn’t set a nasty tone. You did.<br /><br />You said: “To date, you have implied I agree with James White on PS when you are the one who believes in PS, not me. That is dishonest, wouldn't you say?”<br /><br />ME: No. You are just not understanding what I am saying. Maybe it’s the animus that’s getting in your way. I said that you agree with White’s implications of PS. Just because he says that PS leads to LA, that doesn’t make it true. It doesn’t make him correct in his assertions. He’s wrong. But you accept him as an authority on PS. <br /><br />You said: “Just to clarify something; while I have met Nick to discuss PS with him face to face, I knew about PS long before I ever stumbled upon his blog. I make no apologies for asking him to help me with some particular passages of the Bible used by Protestants as proof texts for PS. ( I bet you know the exact ones ). But as for the theory, I knew it was wrong long before meeting Nick or finding his blog. in fact, I bet I knew PS was wrong long before Nick did as I am way older than he is.”<br /><br />ME: You rely on Nick. I’ll rely on Father Koterski, and Dr. Stackpole, two noted Catholic scholars.<br /><br />And I’ll rely on the clear meaning of the teachings of Pope St. John Paul II.<br /><br />Good night.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4588905705506605875.post-76490218524367172812015-05-09T23:00:45.681-07:002015-05-09T23:00:45.681-07:00“guy fawkes”
You said: “I have never, NEVER, hear...“guy fawkes”<br /><br />You said: “I have never, NEVER, heard anyone say in the Mass we commemorate or re-present, the punishment of Christ by the Father. Christ does indeed have the same dispositions now that He had at the Supper, in the Garden and on Calvary. That is why He is still a theothyte, a perpetual,glorified Victim. Those dispositions do not include what the protestants on the proffered links say he experienced in His passion. In the Mass we do NOT celebrate the Father refusing to look upon sin, turning His back on the Son, or any such blasphemy.”<br /><br />ME: Again, EXACTLY!!! Did you read what I wrote about the bloody sacrifice of Calvary and the unbloody sacrifice of the Mass? Jesus is not re-crucified in the Mass. He suffered once for all on Calvary. And that included the suffering of the penalty of sin. It is not repeated. <br /><br />The prayers of the Mass mention His suffering, His Passion, which includes ALL of His suffering, not just the physical and the emotional suffering. It includes the suffering of taking on Himself the sins of all humanity, and suffering the penalty.<br /><br />Penal substitution is a subset of Satisfaction. It is NOT the only aspect of the Atonement. It is one aspect of Satisfaction. This is the Catholic view. Protestants almost make it the sum total of the Atonement, but it is one aspect. Again, it is a subset of Satisfaction, along with Sacrifice, Ransom and Merit. The Atonement is a deep mystery.<br /><br />The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of God the Son offering Himself to the Father, as He has always done.<br /><br />You’re so close. If you would just stop being so argumentative and slow down, you would see that we have much more agreement than you care to admit. And if you read JPII’s teachings for yourself you would see that he believed that our Lord took on our frail humanity AND he took on our sins. Both. Not either/or. And he suffered, not just the consequences of our frail humanity but also the consequences of sin. It’s right there in his teaching, clear as day, no need for anyone to interpret, or tell you any different.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681358593385397592noreply@blogger.com